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Debate on bill on Friday, 15 March 2019, in the House of Lords, led by Lord Grocott. The answering member was Lord Young of Cookham.


House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Lords report stage. Amendment, as amended, agreed to. Motion that the question on an amendment be put, agreed to on division (87 votes to 23; Tellers for the Contents reported 87 votes; the Clerks recorded 89). The amendment was then disagreed to on division (21 votes to 85). Another amendment disagreed to on division division (15 votes to 48). Other amendments debated and withdrawn.


Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
796 cc1211-1257 
Session
2017-19
Legislative stage
Report stage
Procedure
Closure motions
Private members' bills proceedings
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Fowler | 796 c1211 (Link to this contribution)

The procedure is that we take this first. The question is “That this Report be now received”. As ...

Show all contributions (168)
Lord Trefgarne | 796 cc1211-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I apologise for confusing the procedure. I simply wanted to say a few words before we g...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 796 c1212 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I wonder whether the Minister might help the House understand what is actually taking p...

Lord Young of Cookham | 796 c1212 (Link to this contribution)

Well, let me have a go. I think my noble friend Lord Trefgarne was hoping to intervene on the Mot...

Lord Cormack | 796 c1212 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Cormack

1: Clause 1, page 1, line 4, at end insert “, save for the Earl...

Lord Cormack | 796 c1212 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, before I speak to my amendment, I say—on behalf of everyone in the House, I am sure—how...

Lord Fowler | 796 c1213 (Link to this contribution)

I can see it is going to be one of those days. Amendment proposed: page 1, line 4, at end insert ...

Lord Northbrook | 796 c1213 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Northbrook

2: Clause 1, at end insert “, and who thereby remain members...

Lord Northbrook | 796 c1213 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I firmly support my noble friend Lord Cormack’s amendment but it needs a little tweakin...

Lord Grocott | 796 c1213 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I fear that we may already be losing the dozen people I understand to be following this...

Lord Strathclyde | 796 c1214 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Strathclyde

2A: Clause 1, page 1, line 4, at end insert “and create a s...

Lord Strathclyde | 796 c1214 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Amendment 2A is not on the Marshalled List. I apologise; it was tabled rather late yest...

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 796 c1214 (Link to this contribution)

If my noble friend is so certain that the Bill will not make it on to the statute book, why on ea...

Lord Strathclyde | 796 cc1214-5 (Link to this contribution)

I was just about to come to that. My amendment is small and humble but it deals with an important...

Lord Anderson of Swansea | 796 c1215 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, has the noble Lord been advised that his amendment is within the purposes of the Bill?<...

Lord Strathclyde | 796 c1215 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I went to the Public Bill Office to put the amendment down, and it took the clerk about...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 796 c1215 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the noble Lord. I have to say that the loss of 40 Conservative hereditary Peers ...

Lord Strathclyde | 796 c1215 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am not an actuary but I am sure there are actuarial tables that the noble Lord, Lord ...

Lord Redesdale | 796 c1216 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I do not want to intervene for long, but I am in rather a strange position. As a life P...

Lord Strathclyde | 796 c1216 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I wholly accept that everyone thought that the hereditary Peer by-elections would never...

Lord Adonis | 796 c1216 (Link to this contribution)

I hope the noble Lord will forgive me. Would his statutory commission apply just to Cross-Bench P...

Lord Strathclyde | 796 cc1217-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble Lord and I stand shoulder to shoulder in our radicalism. I would want a statu...

Lord Grocott | 796 cc1218-1220 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, someone from this side should perhaps say a few words at this stage. I wholly associate...

Lord Cormack | 796 c1220 (Link to this contribution)

I support everything that the noble Lord, my friend, has said, but would it not look ridiculous i...

Lord Grocott | 796 c1220 (Link to this contribution)

That is absolutely right. This Report stage is scheduled to finish at 1.30 pm. That is ample time...

Lord Hain | 796 c1220 (Link to this contribution)

Before my noble friend sits down, perhaps I may ask his advice on one point. Surely the Governmen...

Lord Grocott | 796 c1220 (Link to this contribution)

I sincerely wish it were possible to carry this Bill over into the next Session, because there is...

Earl of Caithness | 796 c1221 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it might be for the benefit of the House if I speak to my Amendments 58, 59 and 60, whi...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 796 c1221 (Link to this contribution)

There will be people outside watching this debate. Will Members declare an interest at the beginn...

Earl of Caithness | 796 c1221 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, that is not a declarable interest, but I think all those who are interested enough to l...

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 796 c1221 (Link to this contribution)

Does my noble friend not see the irony of a hereditary Peer arguing against patronage, given that...

Earl of Caithness | 796 c1222 (Link to this contribution)

We are giving it consideration. It was that eureka moment in the bath that has prompted this deba...

Lord Snape | 796 c1222 (Link to this contribution)

Far from it being a noble quest back in 1999, those of us who were in the other place at the time...

Earl of Caithness | 796 cc1222-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, that is the noble Lord’s interpretation of the agreement. I was not party to it, but it...

Lord Tyler | 796 c1223 (Link to this contribution)

Does the noble Earl recall that he advanced this argument at length in Committee on 23 November 2...

Earl of Caithness | 796 c1223 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I raised this amendment in Committee and, as with many amendments tabled in Committee, ...

Earl of Caithness | 796 c1223 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, I read it too, and I remember saying it, so it is no good pointing and waving papers at me. ...

Lord Trefgarne | 796 c1223 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will speak for only a few moments. I support the amendment and very much hope that it...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 796 c1223 (Link to this contribution)

Will the noble Lord declare an interest so that those outside understand where he is coming from?...

Lord Trefgarne | 796 c1223 (Link to this contribution)

If it will satisfy the noble Lord, I am happy to declare that I am a hereditary Peer.

A few...

Lord Grocott | 796 c1223 (Link to this contribution)

Can we dispose of this matter? One would think that lots of people would vote in a whole House el...

Lord Trefgarne | 796 c1223 (Link to this contribution)

No doubt, if there is another all-House by-election, the noble Lord will persuade them otherwise,...

Lord Elton | 796 c1224 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I wish to intervene very briefly to declare an interest as another hereditary Peer and ...

Lord Northbrook | 796 c1224 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I hope that this answers the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Swansea, ...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 796 c1224 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, again, will the noble Lord declare an interest in this debate to help people outside un...

Lord Northbrook | 796 c1224 (Link to this contribution)

I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. I declare an interest as a hereditary Peer....

Lord Fowler | 796 c1224 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, we will now pause for a minute’s silence in memory of those who have lost their lives i...

Lord Northbrook | 796 cc1224-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Professor Meg Russell of UCL’s Constitution Unit, who is an acknowledged expert on Hous...

Lord Snape | 796 c1225 (Link to this contribution)

I appeal to the noble Lord not to try to rewrite history in the way that he is doing. Does he not...

Lord Northbrook | 796 c1225 (Link to this contribution)

With respect to the noble Lord, I was not part of that deal so I cannot go into the detail of it....

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 796 cc1225-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it would be helpful if we could intervene from these Benches just once. I have to say t...

Earl of Erroll | 796 c1226 (Link to this contribution)

I am afraid that I have two sons and two daughters, so the two sons would have to go first with n...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 796 cc1226-7 (Link to this contribution)

There were several others but, as we know, the figure has gone down from four to one; that is why...

Lord Young of Cookham | 796 c1227 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, perhaps I could intervene briefly at this stage to restate the Government’s position on...

Earl of Erroll | 796 cc1227-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, to avoid an unnecessary intervention by a politically appointed Peer, I am a hereditary...

Lord Rennard | 796 cc1228-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall be brief, as I believe all other noble Lords should be at this stage of conside...

Earl of Caithness | 796 c1229 (Link to this contribution)

Before the noble Lord sits down, will he say anything about the amendment that we are discussing?...

Lord Rennard | 796 c1229 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Earl is well aware of our position in support of having a properly constituted appointm...

Earl of Erroll | 796 c1229 (Link to this contribution)

So how on earth does the noble Lord hope to get what he wants to achieve? He will not be able to ...

Lord Rennard | 796 c1230 (Link to this contribution)

There is no chance of achieving what the noble Lord says he wants to do—set up an independent sta...

Baroness Hooper | 796 c1230 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I declare my interest as a life Peer who has sat in your Lordships’ House for 35 years ...

Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood | 796 cc1230-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I strongly support this Bill. It is for that reason that I oppose this amendment, not b...

Lord Jones of Birmingham | 796 c1231 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I do not think I need to remind noble Lords that, at this moment, all over the nation, ...

Lord Adonis | 796 cc1231-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. It is not an irrelevant am...

Lord Grocott | 796 c1232 (Link to this contribution)

I know that my noble friend is a very keen tweeter. I have had the pleasure of reading one or two...

Lord Adonis | 796 c1233 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, let me be completely frank. If it is a choice between the next election to this House t...

Lord Adonis | 796 c1233 (Link to this contribution)

Or an election by 40 million of our fellow citizens of this country, I believe it should be the 4...

Lord Rennard | 796 c1233 (Link to this contribution)

Does the noble Lord accept that the cost of the current system, which we are trying to abolish, i...

Lord Adonis | 796 c1233 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, that is a completely absurd intervention from the Liberal Democrat Benches. Of course d...

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 796 c1233 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord has stolen my thunder by admitting that his amendment is absurd and part of an exe...

Lord Adonis | 796 c1233 (Link to this contribution)

I think Brenda from Bristol might be keen to take part in this election, because she currently ha...

Earl of Erroll | 796 c1234 (Link to this contribution)

If I may assist the noble Lord, funnily enough, a countrywide election could be handled online el...

Lord Adonis | 796 c1234 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble Earl is very much into these high-tech solutions. Being old-fashioned and bel...

Lord Adonis | 796 cc1234-5 (Link to this contribution)

No, it does not; it is very important to understand what happens. At the moment a health check is...

Baroness Garden of Frognal | 796 c1235 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have to read this very slowly. I am instructed by order of the House to say that the ...

Lord Trefgarne | 796 c1235 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Trefgarne

5: Clause 2, page 1, line 8, leave out subsections (2) and (3...

Lord Trefgarne | 796 c1235 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this amendment is largely self-explanatory but I believe it deals with some of the conc...

Earl of Caithness | 796 c1235 (Link to this contribution)

I rise to support my noble friend’s amendment and to speak to Amendment 6, which is similar to th...

Lord Young of Cookham | 796 c1238 (Link to this contribution)

My noble friend said that he wanted to speak to Amendment 6. That has been ungrouped and is in th...

Earl of Caithness | 796 c1238 (Link to this contribution)

My noble friend is absolutely right, but I was trying for the convenience of the House to speed t...

Lord Strathclyde | 796 c1238 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, perhaps I may now be allowed to join this debate. I said in my opening remarks that I h...

Lord Strathclyde | 796 c1238 (Link to this contribution)

No, my Lords, I am not going to give way to the noble Lord until I have finished this point. I wa...

Lord Grocott | 796 c1238 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, for lowering the temperature. Perhaps we have ...

Lord Strathclyde | 796 c1238 (Link to this contribution)

I notice that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, ducked the opportunity to explain to this House why h...

Lord Snape | 796 c1238 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, said earlier that he was just like everyone else: a hereditary ...

Lord Strathclyde | 796 c1239 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, I could not possibly comment on that nor te...

Lord Cormack | 796 c1239 (Link to this contribution)

Surely my noble friend understands that, having had well over an hour on his amendment, it was ti...

Lord Adonis | 796 c1239 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, what we have seen today is a serious abuse of the procedures of the House by the noble ...

Lord Young of Cookham | 796 c1239 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I gently remind your Lordships that we are meant to be discussing Amendment 5, which is...

Lord Strathclyde | 796 cc1239-1240 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I think that that was as a result of an intervention from my noble friend, so perhaps I...

Lord Strathclyde | 796 c1240 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will get back to the amendment, but I say to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, i...

Lord Rennard | 796 c1240 (Link to this contribution)

Will the noble Lord recall his own very deep anger, which I witnessed, against repeated filibuste...

Lord Young of Cookham | 796 c1240 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I very gently repeat the encouragement I made a few moments ago that the House should a...

Lord Strathclyde | 796 c1240 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall make one very short point: what the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, has misunderstood...

Earl of Erroll | 796 c1240 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, briefly, I think we should look at rejigging the balance between the parties represente...

Lord Grocott | 796 c1240 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this is the fifth amendment of 61 that we have to consider. What has been happening is ...

Lord Trefgarne | 796 c1241 (Link to this contribution)

I think that the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, were addressed to me rather than to my ...

Lord Trefgarne | 796 c1241 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Trefgarne

6: Clause 2, page 1, line 8, leave out subsections (2) and (3...

Lord Trefgarne | 796 c1241 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Trefgarne

7: Clause 2, page 1, line 8, leave out subsections (2) and (3...

Lord Northbrook | 796 c1241 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Northbrook

12: Clause 2, page 1, line 8, leave out subsections (2) and ...

Lord Northbrook | 796 cc1241-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Amendment 12 states that Standing Orders must provide for 90 people to be excepted for ...

Viscount Trenchard | 796 cc1242-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am not sure that my noble friend’s amendment has got the wording precisely correct, b...

Lord Brougham and Vaux | 796 c1243 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I should have advised the House, for which I apologise, that if Amendments 12, 13 and 1...

Earl of Erroll | 796 c1243 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support Amendments 12, 32 and 33. Funnily enough, on the subject of the declaration o...

Lord Howard of Rising | 796 cc1243-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I do not know why my noble friend Lord Trenchard was let off by the noble Lord, Lord Ca...

Lord Colgrain | 796 cc1244-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support this amendment and Amendment 23, having said before in your Lordships’ House ...

Lord Lea of Crondall | 796 c1245 (Link to this contribution)

Is the noble Lord’s logic not that all hereditaries should be Cross-Benchers?

Lord Colgrain | 796 c1245 (Link to this contribution)

If the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, is successful in his Bill and the hereditary election process is...

Lord Adonis | 796 cc1245-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this is not a sensible amendment. We have one absurd system for electing hereditary Pee...

Lord Strathclyde | 796 c1246 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Howard of Rising for reminding us of what happene...

Lord Grocott | 796 c1247 (Link to this contribution)

It obviously does not even begin to solve the problem, because the elephant in the room is that t...

Lord Strathclyde | 796 c1247 (Link to this contribution)

I am not aware that anyone has made an argument in favour of the hereditary peerage since the end...

Earl of Erroll | 796 c1247 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble Lord keeps banging on about how the hereditary Peers should not be here, it i...

Lord Howard of Rising | 796 c1247 (Link to this contribution)

I wish to quote from that same 1968 debate—

Lord Young of Cookham | 796 c1248 (Link to this contribution)

I remind my noble friend of the instructions on page 130 of the Companion. They state very clearl...

Earl of Caithness | 796 c1248 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, prompted me to rise when I was not going to speak on this...

Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood | 796 c1248 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I suggest that a feature of this group of amendments—indeed, of all the others too with...

Lord Snape | 796 cc1248-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I did not intend to speak on this group of amendments but I was provoked to do so by th...

Lord Strathclyde | 796 c1249 (Link to this contribution)

I really do think that I would try the patience of the House if I even attempted to respond to th...

Lord Mancroft | 796 c1249 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, while it is attractive and interesting to look back at the past and see what happened—w...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 796 c1249 (Link to this contribution)

Will the noble Lord please declare his interest?

Lord Mancroft | 796 c1249 (Link to this contribution)

I think that the Standing Orders do not require me to declare an interest given that most people ...

Lord Mancroft | 796 c1249 (Link to this contribution)

If the noble Lord will kindly allow me to finish, I will give way to him. As I say, we are seeing...

Lord Mancroft | 796 c1250 (Link to this contribution)

I think that the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, trumps the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours.

Lord Rennard | 796 c1250 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I recall almost exactly the same speech being made in almost exactly the same terms by ...

Lord Mancroft | 796 c1250 (Link to this contribution)

I am most grateful to the noble Lord for reminding me of that, but I am afraid that he was referr...

Lord Northbrook | 796 c1250 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am grateful to all those who have participated in the debate on this amendment, inclu...

Lord Northbrook | 796 c1250 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Northbrook

13: Clause 2, page 1, line 8, leave out subsections (2) and ...

Lord Northbrook | 796 c1250 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Amendment 13 is a refined version of the amendment I moved in Committee. It again sugge...

Lord Strathclyde | 796 cc1250-2 (Link to this contribution)

As I understand the amendment, and I am not sure I entirely understand it, my noble friend is try...

Lord Adonis | 796 c1252 (Link to this contribution)

I have read this amendment twice, and I do not understand how it works. However, I shall address ...

Lord Mancroft | 796 c1252 (Link to this contribution)

I think the noble Lord means that my noble friend Lord Cormack and his noble friends are preservi...

Lord Adonis | 796 cc1252-3 (Link to this contribution)

I entirely agree. In so far as I understand what the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Northbrook...

Lord Northbrook | 796 c1253 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps I may quickly explain to the noble Lord the intention behind my amendment. Originally it ...

Lord Adonis | 796 c1253 (Link to this contribution)

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for explaining the amendment. I now understand it and will h...

Lord Grocott | 796 cc1253-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Adonis repeats his arguments on successive amendments, he is ge...

Lord Howard of Rising | 796 c1254 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the noble Lord for giving way. What does he think about the House of Commons opposing the...

Lord Grocott | 796 c1254 (Link to this contribution)

I do not see the direct relevance of that to what I am saying. I have expressed my views on the 1...

Earl of Caithness | 796 c1254 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, once again mentioned my noble friend Lord Trefgarne and m...

Lord Northbrook | 796 c1254 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for all their contributions to the debate on my amendment. I feel t...

Lord Northbrook | 796 c1255 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Northbrook

14: Clause 2, page 1, line 8, leave out subsections (2) and ...

Lord Northbrook | 796 c1255 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this amendment provides—

Lord Strathclyde | 796 c1255 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, may I just check to which amendment my noble friend is speaking? Is it Amendment 15, in...

Lord Northbrook | 796 c1255 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this amendment provides that,

“future vacancies … be filled using a method which ...

Lord Strathclyde | 796 c1256 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I understand my noble friend’s intention, which is to try to guarantee some sort of reg...

Lord Snape | 796 c1256 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord is being too modest. After all, he owns a large chunk of Scotland, so who better t...

Lord Strathclyde | 796 c1256 (Link to this contribution)

That is a very kind thought from the noble Lord, but I do not represent Scotland or anyone in Sco...

Lord Adonis | 796 c1256 (Link to this contribution)

My noble friend Lord Snape takes huge offence at that remark by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde....

Lord Snape | 796 c1256 (Link to this contribution)

If I may say so, none of them Members of this House, despite what the noble Lord, Lord Colgrain, ...

Lord Strathclyde | 796 c1256 (Link to this contribution)

Okay, my Lords, I can see that I have lost that particular argument with the noble Lord, Lord Sna...

Lord Grocott | 796 c1256 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am absolutely in favour of every Member of this House expressing their views on whate...

Lord Strathclyde | 796 c1256 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I do not look forward to the next Labour Government, but there will be one. When that G...

Lord Russell of Liverpool | 796 c1257 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, before I—and, I suspect, many others in this House—lose the will to live, I declare an ...

Lord Grocott | 796 c1257 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am profoundly grateful for that intervention from the noble Lord, Lord Russell, which...

Lord Northbrook | 796 c1257 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am thankful to all noble Lords who spoke. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Notes
A minute's silence was observed for the victims of the Christchurch, New Zealand attacks.
Subjects
By-elections Equality Hereditary peers House of Lords composition Exemptions House of Lords Appointments Commission Northern Ireland Scotland Wales
Legislation
House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-elections) Bill (HL) 2017-19
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on hansard.parliament.uk