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Queen's speech debate on Monday, 15 December 2008, in the House of Commons, led by George Osborne. The answering member was Lord Darling of Roulanish.

Economy, Pensions and Welfare

Queen's speech debate (sixth day) on the economy, pensions and welfare. Amendments to loyal address negatived on division (306 to 255) and (304 to 66). Main question agreed on division (302 to 251).

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
485 c833-933 
Session
2008-09
Department
Department for Work and Pensions
Treasury
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Proceeding contributions
John Mason | 485 c885 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Lady give way?
George Osborne | 485 c833-7 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move an amendment, at the end of the Question to add:"““but humbly regret that the Gracious...
Show all contributions (168)
Baroness Brown of Silvertown | 485 c899-902 (Link to this contribution) I shall consider some of the means that we need to adopt if we are to eliminate child poverty in the...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c847-8 (Link to this contribution) I shall make some progress and perhaps give way later. It is pretty clear that the difference betwe...
Speaker | 485 c864 (Link to this contribution) Order. Let me remind the House that Mr. Speaker has placed a 10-minute limit on Back Benchers' speec...
Rob Marris | 485 c843 (Link to this contribution) On the point of control of Government expenditure, the hon. Gentleman is making a thoughtful speech—...
Jim Cunningham | 485 c853 (Link to this contribution) What I found very interesting during the shadow Chancellor's speech was the lack of an alternative. ...
Greg Hands | 485 c842 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for giving way, although this is not a question about Germany. One of the sec...
Yvette Cooper | 485 c840 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will tell the House whether he supports the £60 for every pensioner, to b...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c853 (Link to this contribution) What I am saying is that taking money out of the economy this year or next year is the wrong thing t...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c853-4 (Link to this contribution) It is the case that debt and borrowing will rise. The shadow Chancellor was complaining about what w...
Speaker | 485 c833 (Link to this contribution) I wish to inform the House that I have selected for debate the amendment in the name of the Leader o...
Speaker | 485 c891 (Link to this contribution) Order. Before I call the next Member to speak, let me say that a large number of Members are seeking...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 485 c837 (Link to this contribution) May I push the hon. Gentleman further on that? Members on both sides of the House will be desperatel...
Rob Marris | 485 c838 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
George Osborne | 485 c838 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. Again, I shall come on to discuss recapitalisation. I certa...
Tobias Ellwood | 485 c838 (Link to this contribution) Supporting businesses is an aim shared by Members in all parts of the House. The Government have bor...
George Osborne | 485 c837-8 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman makes a compelling case, with which I agree, about the need to get credit f...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 485 c837 (Link to this contribution) I am following the hon. Gentleman's argument carefully. He has noted the importance of getting credi...
George Osborne | 485 c837 (Link to this contribution) If I needed persuading before that intervention, I am totally persuaded now. We plan to vote against...
George Osborne | 485 c838 (Link to this contribution) I always enjoy giving way to the hon. Gentleman.
Rob Marris | 485 c838 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. He is always gracious to me. I understand that he and his party...
George Osborne | 485 c838-9 (Link to this contribution) Let me say two things to the hon. Gentleman. First, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, i...
Stewart Hosie | 485 c839 (Link to this contribution) Before the shadow Chancellor moves on from VAT, may I point to him that it is £12.5 billion of real ...
George Osborne | 485 c839 (Link to this contribution) I know one business that kept some of the VAT for itself—the Labour party, whose own shop did not pa...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c846 (Link to this contribution) We are going to be affected more substantially in relation to the loss of revenues that we are now e...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c846 (Link to this contribution) Opposition Members have to accept that even the Americans admit that the problem started in America....
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c845-6 (Link to this contribution) Yet again, the shadow Chancellor was pretty thin on what he would do in the face of the global downt...
Adam Afriyie | 485 c846 (Link to this contribution) The Chancellor is talking about international co-operation and the international context. The Europe...
Adrian Bailey | 485 c844 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
George Osborne | 485 c844-5 (Link to this contribution) With respect to the hon. Gentleman, I have given way a number of times, so I shall make a bit more p...
Chris Huhne | 485 c844 (Link to this contribution) I would like some clarification of the hon. Gentleman's fiscal policy. Is he still committed to the ...
George Osborne | 485 c844 (Link to this contribution) As my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, I and many other Conservatives have said, we a...
George Osborne | 485 c844 (Link to this contribution) Let me give way one more time to the hon. Gentleman. He is hovering because he sees a potential oppo...
George Osborne | 485 c844 (Link to this contribution) The way in which we envisage the scheme working is that the losses will be shared pari passu. It wou...
George Osborne | 485 c843 (Link to this contribution) I will certainly give way on the point about PFI.
George Osborne | 485 c843 (Link to this contribution) Since we are in a recession of unknown length, and the hon. Gentleman cannot tell me what gross dome...
Andrew Pelling | 485 c844 (Link to this contribution) It is generous of the hon. Gentleman to give way to me a second time. He has shown that he is determ...
Rob Marris | 485 c843 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Andrew Pelling | 485 c843 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
George Osborne | 485 c843 (Link to this contribution) I have given way to both hon. Members, and as many Members wish to speak in this debate I shall make...
Rob Marris | 485 c843 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
George Osborne | 485 c843 (Link to this contribution) I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend that that is another example of how the credit problems in th...
Lord Tyrie | 485 c850 (Link to this contribution) Surely the Chancellor can at least see that the bank recapitalisation package has failed to restore ...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c850 (Link to this contribution) As a country moves into a downturn, it is not surprising that that affects the level of lending, and...
Stewart Hosie | 485 c848 (Link to this contribution) I am following the Chancellor's argument on regulation, but given that regulatory failure was beginn...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c848-9 (Link to this contribution) Legislation aimed at strengthening the supervision and regulation of the banks is already going thro...
Andrew Pelling | 485 c848 (Link to this contribution) That might be effective criticism of the Conservatives for the purpose of putting out leaflets, but ...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c848 (Link to this contribution) As I said a few moments ago, there are obviously lessons to be learned from what has happened, not j...
Stewart Hosie | 485 c849 (Link to this contribution) The strength of the United Kingdom is in the borrowing of £1 trillion in order to fund some of the p...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c849 (Link to this contribution) That is patent nonsense. I do not think that many people would agree with the hon. Gentleman. As I ...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c849 (Link to this contribution) Yes, as I have insulted the hon. Gentleman, I will certainly give way to him.
Lord Tyrie | 485 c850 (Link to this contribution) You have told the banks to return to 2007 levels.
Alistair Burt | 485 c846-7 (Link to this contribution) But we are trying to make a keen distinction. Was the Minister for the Olympics right today to recog...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c847 (Link to this contribution) What I know is that my right hon. Friend the Minister, like everyone on the Labour Benches, supports...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c847 (Link to this contribution) No. We are prepared to take action to help people and businesses; the Conservative party has made i...
George Osborne | 485 c847 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Chancellor for giving way. My hon. Friend the Member for North-East Bedfordshir...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c847 (Link to this contribution) I have made it very clear that we, along with every other developed country the world over, face a h...
Andrew Pelling | 485 c840 (Link to this contribution) On the hon. Gentleman's plans on recapitalisation and repairing the banks, why has the Conservative ...
George Osborne | 485 c840 (Link to this contribution) With the greatest respect to the hon. Lady, I should say that I think that she is reading the plante...
Mary Creagh | 485 c840 (Link to this contribution) What would the hon. Gentleman say to the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke), ...
George Osborne | 485 c842 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend, and I would be delighted to read the survey from Essex chamber of comme...
John Baron | 485 c842 (Link to this contribution) To substantiate what my hon. Friend is saying about our proposals for a loan guarantee scheme, is he...
George Osborne | 485 c840-2 (Link to this contribution) We are looking at all the options. The idea of a bad bank is at least worth considering, although th...
George Osborne | 485 c842 (Link to this contribution) I will certainly give way to my hon. Friend, who has excellent connections with the German Christian...
George Osborne | 485 c839 (Link to this contribution) I shall make a little more progress and perhaps give way to the hon. Gentleman later. I was speakin...
George Osborne | 485 c840 (Link to this contribution) —and while she is up, I want to know what happened to the Equitable Life statement.
George Osborne | 485 c840 (Link to this contribution) I notice that, again, there was not a word on Equitable Life; perhaps the Chancellor will deal with ...
George Osborne | 485 c840 (Link to this contribution) By the Chief Secretary's own admission, there are billions of pounds of efficiency savings to be mad...
Stephen Dorrell | 485 c852 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c852-3 (Link to this contribution) No, I want to make some progress; the right hon. Gentleman has just intervened. The Leader of the O...
Philip Dunne | 485 c851 (Link to this contribution) On the Chancellor's recapitalisation plan, was he surprised that in the case of the Royal Bank of Sc...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c851 (Link to this contribution) The reason why we imposed a charge was to ensure not only that the taxpayer got value for money, but...
Tobias Ellwood | 485 c850 (Link to this contribution) The Chancellor needs to explain why he set a coupon rate of 12 per cent. When we look at the America...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c850 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman refers to the 2007 levels of lending, which both the RBS group and the Lloyds-HBO...
Rob Marris | 485 c852 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is a sad day for democracy when we have an official Oppositi...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c851-2 (Link to this contribution) As I have said, I will keep all those things under review, because I want to ensure two things—that ...
Stephen Dorrell | 485 c851 (Link to this contribution) From what the Chancellor has said over the past two or three minutes, I am unclear about something: ...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c851 (Link to this contribution) It is what we expected. It was obvious that in the conditions prevailing in October it would be high...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c852 (Link to this contribution) I was just going to come on to that point, because the shadow Chancellor made pretty heavy weather o...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c854 (Link to this contribution) As I used a slightly stronger tone than I am accustomed to using, I shall certainly give way to the ...
Brooks Newmark | 485 c854 (Link to this contribution) I am simply asking the Chancellor to confirm that over five years he will be doubling debt to a sum ...
Brian Binley | 485 c853 (Link to this contribution) Has the Chancellor just given a hint of the date of the next election, or is he saying that his proj...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c853 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, and that is precisely the problem that the shadow Chancellor has. It was not that long ago, ...
Brooks Newmark | 485 c853 (Link to this contribution) Can the Chancellor confirm that Labour will be doubling our national debt in just five years to more...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c854 (Link to this contribution) No, sit down. To argue that money should be taken out of the economy now would be completely ridicul...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c855 (Link to this contribution) I am going to make some progress. As I was saying, it is important at a time such as this that we ta...
Chris Huhne | 485 c855 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Chancellor for giving way, particularly on the point about the likely debt that...
Lord McFall of Alcluith | 485 c855 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the Chancellor can help me. By accepting the automatic stabilisers, the official Op...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c855 (Link to this contribution) As I said to the House, the shadow Chancellor, having said that he accepts the need to allow the aut...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c855 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to my right hon. Friend and then I shall make some progress.
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c854 (Link to this contribution) I think that the electorate came to the view that we were able to pick rather a large hole in it. Th...
Lord Howard of Lympne | 485 c854 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Chancellor. I have come into the Chamber because he has just said that at ...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c854 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Gentleman was not here—[Interruption.] I think I am right in saying that ...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c854 (Link to this contribution) The debt is increasing, as I have said to the hon. Gentleman, just as debt doubled in the 1990s duri...
Vincent Cable | 485 c857-8 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Chancellor for that clarification. I am not sure about the reference to adjusting what w...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c857 (Link to this contribution) I half expected the hon. Gentleman to intervene earlier. There will be a statement tomorrow, but I w...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c855-6 (Link to this contribution) The estimates that I set before the House reflect the fact that, as I said earlier, we have a large ...
Vincent Cable | 485 c856-7 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the opportunity to return to some of the issues in an economic situation that is deteriora...
Lord Darling of Roulanish | 485 c856 (Link to this contribution) Not just now. The hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne) is right, but if we are to ensure that we ...
Peter Tapsell | 485 c868-9 (Link to this contribution) Under the 10-minute limit for speeches, one can really utter only a few soundbites, without giving a...
Malcolm Wicks | 485 c869-71 (Link to this contribution) Most of the debate has, understandably, been on the grave economic situation that faces the country ...
David Leslie Taylor | 485 c871 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree with me about one point in the fine speech made by the hon. Member f...
Malcolm Wicks | 485 c871-2 (Link to this contribution) Let me pursue my argument, because I will touch on that issue—and, I fear, not necessarily in ways t...
Andrew Pelling | 485 c872 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Malcolm Wicks | 485 c872 (Link to this contribution) I do not have the time to, sir; I am sure that we can debate these matters later in a prominent Lond...
Lord McFall of Alcluith | 485 c864-5 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to speak in this Queen's Speech debate. The 2008 pre-Budget report stands as a test...
Kelvin Hopkins | 485 c865 (Link to this contribution) I am very interested in what my right hon. Friend is saying. What is wrong with a substantial part, ...
Lord McFall of Alcluith | 485 c865-7 (Link to this contribution) That is my hon. Friend's viewpoint. If we can get the system working, and do not rush to judgment, t...
Peter Viggers | 485 c872-4 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Member for Croydon, North (Malcolm Wicks) made a thoughtful and constructive speech, ...
Stephen Dorrell | 485 c877-9 (Link to this contribution) I begin by declaring an interest as a director and shareholder of a trading company. Harold Wilson ...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 485 c879-80 (Link to this contribution) I wish to revert to the sombre note that the hon. Member for Louth and Horncastle (Sir Peter Tapsell...
Michael Meacher | 485 c874-7 (Link to this contribution) Like most other speakers, I want to concentrate on the recession and how we should be dealing with i...
Mark Lazarowicz | 485 c860 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Vincent Cable | 485 c860 (Link to this contribution) I will take interventions shortly. Western economies are in an extreme state of crisis. If interest...
Andrew Love | 485 c861 (Link to this contribution) On the basis of what the hon. Gentleman has just said, and the gloomy scenario he painted at the beg...
Vincent Cable | 485 c861 (Link to this contribution) There may have to be, although we are rapidly exhausting it. The issue we face—and a question I inte...
Vincent Cable | 485 c858-9 (Link to this contribution) I shall come to that in a moment. If there is a problem—the Conservative spokesman clearly thinks t...
Andrew Pelling | 485 c859 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way, despite the fact that that displeased his colleague the h...
Vincent Cable | 485 c859-60 (Link to this contribution) I think the hon. Gentleman is putting my point in a slightly different way: the British financial se...
Kelvin Hopkins | 485 c858 (Link to this contribution) Talking about the euro-sterling exchange rate, does the hon. Gentleman accept that for a decade or m...
Vincent Cable | 485 c858 (Link to this contribution) I agree with almost every word of that, which makes me wonder why the issue was raised in the first ...
Vincent Cable | 485 c863-4 (Link to this contribution) It is the only comparison we have, and it is what the bank paid, so presumably that is the alternati...
Vincent Cable | 485 c862-3 (Link to this contribution) I thank the right hon. Gentleman for making my point. I think the Government are saying that they wi...
Lord Tyrie | 485 c863 (Link to this contribution) Would the hon. Gentleman agree that the 16 per cent. that he quoted is not really a market figure? T...
Vincent Cable | 485 c862 (Link to this contribution) That is right, and we have made a few suggestions about how it could be done. We wish the Government...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 485 c862 (Link to this contribution) The House would find it valuable if the hon. Gentleman could spell out the differences between Gover...
Vincent Cable | 485 c862 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is right, because this recession is very bad and public debt as a share of ...
Kelvin Hopkins | 485 c862 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that there is still more scope for increasing taxes on the very rich?...
Vincent Cable | 485 c861 (Link to this contribution) The European Commission is not always right, and on this occasion I think it is wrong, for two reaso...
Stephen Dorrell | 485 c861-2 (Link to this contribution) Does it not give the hon. Gentleman pause that the Government's figures, set out in table 1.1 of the...
George Osborne | 485 c861 (Link to this contribution) The question is whether Britain can afford a fiscal stimulus, not whether China, or indeed the Unite...
Stewart Hosie | 485 c881-2 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field), and I am glad that he m...
Andrew Pelling | 485 c882 (Link to this contribution) Would the hon. Gentleman regard it as reasonable for the Scottish people to be taking on all the add...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 485 c880-1 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not give way—well, I might in a minute. My plea to the Government is to rethink how we c...
Stewart Hosie | 485 c882-3 (Link to this contribution) It would be useful for Scotland to be independent as soon as people want it to be. I will not be too...
Roberta Blackman-Woods | 485 c913-4 (Link to this contribution) I shall endeavour to keep my remarks brief, but I want to say a few words about the economic measure...
Mohammad Sarwar | 485 c911-3 (Link to this contribution) The UK and, indeed, the wider global economy are entering an exceptionally difficult and uncertain t...
James Purnell | 485 c917-9 (Link to this contribution) This had been rather a good debate until the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling) made h...
Lord Grayling | 485 c914-7 (Link to this contribution) This Queen's Speech has all the hallmarks of a Government who have been in power too long. It has al...
James Purnell | 485 c919 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that the shadow Chancellor needs help from the Scottish National party—things are not...
James Purnell | 485 c919-21 (Link to this contribution) Exactly. They have not done that in Scotland, and they could be doing it. I hope that the hon. Gentl...
Stewart Hosie | 485 c919 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State talks about the £3 billion. Will he confirm that that is not new money, but r...
Anne McGuire | 485 c884-5 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to take part in today's debate. I am p...
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 485 c887-9 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs. McGuire). She made a thoughtful ...
Anne McGuire | 485 c885-7 (Link to this contribution) No. The business model proposed by the Scottish National party was the arc of prosperity consisting...
Stewart Hosie | 485 c883-4 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. However, the stimulus package came after the announcement of the $150 billion package from t...
James Plaskitt | 485 c889-91 (Link to this contribution) In this debate so far, every Member who has spoken on the economy has touched on the issue of bankin...
Harry Cohen | 485 c894-6 (Link to this contribution) First, let me say a word about Afghanistan, because it feeds into this debate. It looks like we are ...
Robert Syms | 485 c891-4 (Link to this contribution) First, I declare my interest in the Register of Members' Interests: I am a director of a family prop...
Philip Dunne | 485 c905-6 (Link to this contribution) It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for West Bromwich, West (Mr. Bailey), who is a wort...
Adrian Bailey | 485 c903-5 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Croydon, Central (Mr. Pelling), who gave a short, rea...
Andrew Pelling | 485 c902-3 (Link to this contribution) It is important that we debate that issue on the day on which the extent of the Madoff scandal and f...
Bob Spink | 485 c902 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is discussing the financial market, and he will be as concerned as I am about the Mad...
Andrew Pelling | 485 c902 (Link to this contribution) First, may I declare that I am an RBS pension holder—I hope to be paid a pension at some stage—and I...
Alistair Burt | 485 c896-9 (Link to this contribution) It is always a pleasure to listen to the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead (Harry Cohen), even if ...
Mark Lazarowicz | 485 c909-11 (Link to this contribution) If anyone had any doubts about the clear contrast between the approaches of the main parties towards...
Mary Creagh | 485 c908-9 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to speak after my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, South (Mr. Cunningham), who ...
Jim Cunningham | 485 c906-8 (Link to this contribution) I was very interested in what the hon. Member for North-East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) had to say...
Subjects
Bank services Banks Credit Financial markets Economic situation Pensions Loans Unemployment Social security benefits Social security VAT Addresses to the Crown
Link
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