Committee proceeding and Debate on bill on Wednesday, 29 January 2025, in the House of Lords, led by Lord Livermore. The answering members were Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Altrincham.

National Insurance Contributions (Secondary Class 1 Contributions) Bill

Lords committee stage second day. Clause 1 agreed to.

Secondary information

Type: Parliamentary proceeding
Reference: 843 cc361-124GC
Session: 2024-26
Department: Treasury
Legislative stage: Committee stage
Chamber / Committee: House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items: National Insurance Contributions (Secondary Class 1 Contributions) Bill 2024-26. Brought from the Commons
Wednesday, 18 December 2024
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions: Baroness Neville-Rolfe | 843 c362GC (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
6: Clause 1, page 1, line 1, at end insert—
“(A...; Baroness Neville-Rolfe | 843 cc362-69GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I rise to move Amendment 6 in my name and to speak to my Amendments 23 and 48, all on s...; Lord Londesborough | 843 cc68-70GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 22, 39 and 53 in my name in this group, to which the noble ...; Baroness Noakes | 843 cc70-3GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have Amendment 33 in this group; I thank my noble friends Lady Neville-Rolfe, Lord Ah...; Lord Eatwell | 843 c73GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, with respect to all the amendments in this group, with the exception of that of the nob...; Baroness Noakes | 843 c73GC (Link to this contribution)
I will briefly respond to that. I am asking for an impact assessment of the Bill. The Bill does n...; Lord Howard of Rising | 843 cc74-5GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support Amendment 33 in the name of my noble friend Lady Noakes and to which I have a...; Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 843 c75GC (Link to this contribution)
You get a knighthood.; Lord Howard of Rising | 843 c76GC (Link to this contribution)
As my noble friend says, you get a knighthood—possibly even a barony. If you get something wrong,...; Lord Sharkey | 843 c76GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we have a lot of sympathy for the amendments in this group. My noble friend Lady Kramer...; Lord Blackwell | 843 c77GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I would like to put this discussion in the context of the profitability of the small bu...; Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 843 cc77-9GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I just want to follow up on that excellent point made by my noble friend. It is a long ...; Lord Howard of Rising | 843 c78GC (Link to this contribution)
Given what my noble friend has said, would he agree with what I said earlier: that, actually, the...; Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 843 c78GC (Link to this contribution)
I completely agree with my noble friend. Actually, it is worse than manufacturing going abroad. J...; Baroness Neville-Rolfe | 843 c80GC (Link to this contribution)
That is 10 minutes.; Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 843 c80GC (Link to this contribution)
It may be 10 minutes; I will sit down and then I will get up and make my speech again, if the nob...; Lord Leigh of Hurley | 843 cc80-2GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I apologise; I was not in the country to be present during Second Reading, although I d...; Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 843 c82GC (Link to this contribution)
I am following what my noble friend is saying carefully. He mentioned the number of people who ar...; Lord Leigh of Hurley | 843 c82GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to my noble friend for that comment, because it is clearly the case. Every single o...; Viscount Stansgate | 843 c83GC (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord but, as Members may have noticed, there is a Division in t...; Viscount Stansgate | 843 c67GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we will resume the Committee. The noble Lord, Lord Leigh, has the floor.; Lord Leigh of Hurley | 843 cc67-8GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I think that I had reached the conclusion of my remarks, which is that I support these ...; Baroness Kramer | 843 cc68-84GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I stand as a winding speaker but also as someone who attached their name to Amendment 2...; Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 843 c70GC (Link to this contribution)
It was not a Second Reading speech; I was addressing the issues in the amendment.; Baroness Kramer | 843 cc70-2GC (Link to this contribution)
We will have to beg to differ on that.
I think that the Minister will turn around and say t...; Baroness Lawlor | 843 cc72-85GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I come in just to endorse what my noble friend Lady Noakes said about small businesses ...; Baroness Neville-Rolfe | 843 c85GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this valuable debate, especially those ...; Lord Livermore | 843 cc74-87GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions during this debate. I turn fir...; Baroness Neville-Rolfe | 843 c76GC (Link to this contribution)
On impact assessments, I think I am well known for my requesting them—I even voted against my own...; Lord Livermore | 843 c76GC (Link to this contribution)
I will simply restate my point to the noble Baroness: the approach that we are taking is absolute...; Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 843 cc77-88GC (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful to the Minister for giving way. I am slightly surprised, having listened to so...; Lord Livermore | 843 c79GC (Link to this contribution)
I dispute the noble Lord’s description of the non-dom policy and the impacts that it has had. A t...; Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 843 c78GC (Link to this contribution)
I am of course very familiar with that, but it was wrong, was it not? It was not an effective imp...; Lord Livermore | 843 c80GC (Link to this contribution)
We have not changed the policy; we have made the policy easier to use. The policy is absolutely a...; Lord Londesborough | 843 cc80-9GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for his comments, but I am disappointed and, frankly, baffled that the Treas...; Lord Livermore | 843 c82GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Lord for his follow-up points. As I have said, we are not able to prov...; Lord Leigh of Hurley | 843 c82GC (Link to this contribution)
I asked for an impact assessment on the National Security and Investment Bill, and none was forth...; Lord Livermore | 843 c82GC (Link to this contribution)
I disagree with the noble Lord. The previous Government’s health and social care levy is a very d...; Baroness Neville-Rolfe | 843 c83GC (Link to this contribution)
I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.; Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville | 843 c83GC (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville
7: Clause 1, page 1, line 1, at e...; Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville | 843 cc83-91GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 7 and 66 in my name. I apologise for not being able to speak...; Lord Howard of Rising | 843 cc91-2GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 36 in my name. I declare my interests as a farmer and an e...; Baroness Neville-Rolfe | 843 cc92-86GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I speak to Amendment 50 in my name, which would increase the employment allowance for f...; Lord Livermore | 843 cc86-94GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. I will turn first...; Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville | 843 c94GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response. The impact assessment needs to go further than f...; Lord Altrincham | 843 cc88-9GC (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Altrincham
9: Clause 1, page 1, line 1, at end insert—
“(A1) In s...; Lord Altrincham | 843 cc89-96GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendments 9, 10 and 11 concern young people, and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Nevi...; Lord Sharkey | 843 cc95-7GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, these amendments address very important issues. As noble Lords who attended the Committ...; Lord Blackwell | 843 cc97-8GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I want to add to the comments made by my noble friend Lord Altrincham in introducing th...; Lord Livermore | 843 c98GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I will address the...; Lord Altrincham | 843 c90GC (Link to this contribution)
I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.; Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle | 843 cc93-9GC (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle
11A: Clause 1, page 1, line 1, at end inser...; Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle | 843 cc99-100GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I tabled my Amendment 11A after our extensive discussion, on the previous day of Commit...; Baroness Sater | 843 cc100-2GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I rise to speak to my Amendment 32. I refer your Lordships to my registered interests, ...; Lord Leigh of Hurley | 843 cc102-95GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support all the amendments in this group. I spoke in respect of small businesses and,...; Baroness Sater | 843 c95GC (Link to this contribution)
Can I just follow up the point that my noble friend raised about fundraising? When we start to lo...; Lord Leigh of Hurley | 843 cc97-103GC (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful to my noble friend Lady Sater for underlining my point. It is exactly that. Pe...; Baroness Lawlor | 843 cc103-4GC (Link to this contribution)
Will the noble Lord comment on a different service that charities provide? For instance, my think...; Lord Leigh of Hurley | 843 c104GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, for that. One of the four charities that I chair is a th...; Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 843 cc104-5GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castl...; Baroness Noakes | 843 c105GC (Link to this contribution)
Occasionally? It is more than occasionally.; Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 843 cc99-100GC (Link to this contribution)
I am getting gently heckled by my noble friend Lady Noakes. It may be more than occasionally. On ...; Lord Blackwell | 843 c106GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will not repeat the powerful arguments that have been made for this set of amendments...; Baroness Kramer | 843 cc106-2GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will be very brief, because these Benches spoke extensively on charities in an earlie...; Lord Altrincham | 843 cc102-7GC (Link to this contribution)
This is an interesting set of amendments, given that, in essence, through this policy the Governm...; Lord Livermore | 843 c107GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. I will address th...; Baroness Kramer | 843 c108GC (Link to this contribution)
Is the Minister saying that there is a misunderstanding? Where charities are providing services t...; Lord Livermore | 843 cc103-4GC (Link to this contribution)
That would be a misunderstanding, yes. I just repeat that all charities benefit from the employme...; Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle | 843 cc104-9GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this rich and frequently passionate deba...; Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 843 c109GC (Link to this contribution)
Does the noble Baroness agree with me that one of the other cumulative problems is the national l...; Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle | 843 c105GC (Link to this contribution)
In responding to the noble Lord, I can only applaud the increase in the national minimum wage—ind...; Baroness Sater | 843 c105GC (Link to this contribution)
I totally agree, but there will be charities going bust in the next six months. I know that we wa...; Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle | 843 c110GC (Link to this contribution)
I agree with the noble Baroness and support her amendment. I have already reflected on the lack o...; Baroness Neville-Rolfe | 843 c108GC (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
13: Clause 1, page 1, line 7, at end insert “or on th...; Baroness Neville-Rolfe | 843 cc108-112GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I start by thanking the Minister for his clarification on the full availability of the ...; Baroness Lawlor | 843 cc109-114GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe, and I support her ...; Lord Londesborough | 843 cc114-5GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will speak briefly as I put my name down in support of Amendment 62 in the name of th...; Lord Blackwell | 843 cc115-6GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will make a brief comment on these amendments. In the Committee’s discussions so far,...; Baroness Noakes | 843 c116GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I want to comment briefly on whether we should have impact assessments, which has been ...; Lord Leigh of Hurley | 843 c116GC (Link to this contribution)
I just ask: what are the Government afraid of? This is a sensible suggestion about assessing what...; Baroness Kramer | 843 cc116-7GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall be extremely brief. It must be galling for the Minister to sit here and be lect...; Baroness Neville-Rolfe | 843 c117GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall just say this briefly: we need more transparency on such a major policy change,...; Lord Livermore | 843 cc112-8GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. The noble Baroness, Lady Ne...; Baroness Neville-Rolfe | 843 c118GC (Link to this contribution)
It would be helpful if he could write to clarify these figures. There have been figures made avai...; Lord Livermore | 843 cc114-5GC (Link to this contribution)
The noble Baroness says that it is the least that I can do; I have actually just read out the fig...; Baroness Neville-Rolfe | 843 c115GC (Link to this contribution)
I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.; Baroness Monckton of Dallington Forest | 843 c116GC (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Baroness Monckton of Dallington Forest
14: Clause 1, page 1, line 7, at end ...; Baroness Monckton of Dallington Forest | 843 cc116-9GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in moving Amendment 14, I will also speak to Amendment 27 in my name. I thank my noble ...; Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon | 843 cc119-120GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support my noble friend’s amendment and will speak briefly.
The Minister in the...; Viscount Goschen | 843 c118GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the Committee is very much in the debt of my noble friend Lady Monckton for her having ...; Bishop of Southwark | 843 cc121-2GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 67, which stands in my name. It is supported by the noble Lor...; Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle | 843 c122GC (Link to this contribution)
I rise briefly to offer the Green group’s support for all these amendments. Perhaps the right rev...; Baroness Kramer | 843 c122GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall speak briefly. If I had spotted the amendment of the right reverend Prelate the...; Baroness Noakes | 843 c122GC (Link to this contribution)
His amendment is Amendment 67, so he is not going to be moving it until day four.; Baroness Kramer | 843 c122GC (Link to this contribution)
He said, “I beg to move”.; Baroness Noakes | 843 c119GC (Link to this contribution)
He cannot move it.; Baroness Kramer | 843 c120GC (Link to this contribution)
Problem solved; I am back in my place. Those are the only comments that I wanted to make.; Baroness Neville-Rolfe | 843 cc123-2GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I also support Amendments 14 and 27, tabled so movingly by my noble friend Lady Monckto...; Lord Livermore | 843 cc122-4GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who contributed today. I have of course listened very ...; Baroness Monckton of Dallington Forest | 843 c124GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful for all the thoughtful contributions to this debate, and I thank the Mini...
Subjects: Children Charities Employment Employers' contributions Exemptions Farms Economic growth Inflation Pay Tax rates and bands Transport Special educational needs Young people Small businesses Tax allowances Impact assessments Tax thresholds
Legislation: National Insurance Contributions (Secondary Class 1 Contributions) Bill 2024-26
Link: View this Parliamentary proceeding on hansard.parliament.uk

National Insurance Contributions (Secondary Class 1 Contributions) Bill

Secondary information

Librarians' tools