e-petition debate on Monday, 13 November 2017, in the House of Commons, led by Martyn Day. The answering member was David Mundell.

Referendum on Scottish Independence

Motion that this House has considered e-petitions 180642 and 168781 relating to a referendum on Scottish independence. Agreed to on question. Sitting adjourned without Question put.

Secondary information

Type: Parliamentary proceeding
Reference: 631 cc1-50WH
Session: 2017-19
Department: Scotland Office
Chamber / Committee: Westminster Hall
Related items: E-petitions 180642 and 168781 relating to a referendum on Scottish independence
Thursday, 9 November 2017
Research briefings
Proceeding contributions: Martyn Day | 631 cc1-2WH (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered e-petitions 180642 and 168781 relating to a r...; Ian Murray | 631 c2WH (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way so early in his speech. Quite rightly, he make...; Martyn Day | 631 c2WH (Link to this contribution)
I refer the hon. Gentleman to the Library briefing as I cannot remember the exact figures, but si...; Hannah Bardell | 631 c2WH (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is making a powerful and balanced speech. Does he agree that, in many ways, runnin...; Martyn Day | 631 c2WH (Link to this contribution)
I agree with my hon. Friend and I could not make that point better myself. We had universal suffr...; Douglas Ross | 631 c2WH (Link to this contribution)
Were Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon wrong to say that the referendum was a once in a generation...; Martyn Day | 631 c2WH (Link to this contribution)
I cannot give an opinion on someone else’s personal opinion.; Douglas Ross | 631 c2WH (Link to this contribution)
It is your party’s opinion!; Martyn Day | 631 c3WH (Link to this contribution)
If the hon. Gentleman wishes to intervene again, I will let him. It is up to the Scottish people ...; John Lamont | 631 c3WH (Link to this contribution)
You lost your majority—your vote went down.; Martyn Day | 631 c3WH (Link to this contribution)
Would the hon. Gentleman like to intervene? No. I will continue. The SNP was elected in 2016 with...; Kirstene Hair | 631 c3WH (Link to this contribution)
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that losing 500,000 votes in the recent election is quite a clear i...; Martyn Day | 631 c3WH (Link to this contribution)
It is worth pointing out—I will speak slowly for diction purposes, lest I am misheard—that in my ...; Paul Masterton | 631 c3WH (Link to this contribution)
Can the hon. Gentleman use his career in banking to tell me the percentage difference in the numb...; Martyn Day | 631 c3WH (Link to this contribution)
I cannot give the hon. Gentleman that figure, but I am sure that if he has it at his fingertips, ...; Christine Jardine | 631 c3WH (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?; Martyn Day | 631 c3WH (Link to this contribution)
I will come back to the hon. Lady in one moment. If we believe in a parliamentary democracy using...; David Linden | 631 c3WH (Link to this contribution)
Does my hon. Friend see the irony that the Government party, whose Members have turned up in larg...; Martyn Day | 631 c3WH (Link to this contribution)
I do indeed see the irony and I oppose the House of Lords as a whole on principle, not just on th...; Lord Jack of Courance | 631 c3WH (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?; Martyn Day | 631 c4WH (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman does not know I am going to say next, but of course I will.; Lord Jack of Courance | 631 c4WH (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman mentions the new Under-Secretary of State moving from Perth and Kinross to tha...; Martyn Day | 631 c4WH (Link to this contribution)
I do not think I will deign to answer that—that is not part of a democratic process.
Circum...; David Duguid | 631 c4WH (Link to this contribution)
Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that the content of the document “Scotland’s Future”, of which ...; Martyn Day | 631 c4WH (Link to this contribution)
It is also a matter of record that I and many of my colleagues campaigned strongly on the view th...; Hannah Bardell | 631 c4WH (Link to this contribution)
I thank my hon. Friend for being so generous in giving way. On the point by the hon. Member for B...; Martyn Day | 631 cc4-5WH (Link to this contribution)
I thank my hon. Friend for making that very strong point. A substantial White Paper was produced ...; Ross Thomson | 631 c5WH (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman talks about promises made during the campaign. Would he like to explain what h...; Martyn Day | 631 cc5-6WH (Link to this contribution)
We hear fear stories about oil at different times. In my political career, which spanned 16 years...; Christine Jardine | 631 c6WH (Link to this contribution)
Although we would all agree that no nation can be held in a union against its will, the expressed...; Martyn Day | 631 c6WH (Link to this contribution)
As I have said a few times, circumstances change. The 2016 election gave a mandate. That was rein...; Ian Murray | 631 c6WH (Link to this contribution)
On a point of order, Mr Bailey. I am sorry to interrupt proceedings when the hon. Gentleman is ma...; Adrian Bailey | 631 c6WH (Link to this contribution)
I am not sure that that is a point of order, but the hon. Gentleman has made his point none the l...; Martyn Day | 631 c6WH (Link to this contribution)
The last two Westminster elections have seen a clear majority of SNP MPs democratically returned ...; Lord Jack of Courance | 631 c7WH (Link to this contribution)
If that is what the SNP genuinely believes, why did it hold a vote in the Scottish Parliament on ...; Martyn Day | 631 c7WH (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, but I hoped that I had clarified that point by ...; David Mundell | 631 c7WH (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that point?; Martyn Day | 631 c7WH (Link to this contribution)
Certainly.; David Mundell | 631 c7WH (Link to this contribution)
It is very important that it is on the record for the 500,000 SNP “yes leavers”—the people who vo...; Martyn Day | 631 c7WH (Link to this contribution)
I would be quite happy to block the UK leaving—I say that unashamedly as a remainer. I hope that ...; Stephen Kerr | 631 c7WH (Link to this contribution)
Having heard what the hon. Gentleman just said and his earlier description of himself as a democr...; Martyn Day | 631 cc7-8WH (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments; I will come on to that in my speech. We have a clear...; Jamie Stone | 631 c8WH (Link to this contribution)
If we cast our minds back to the beginning of the year and the end of last year the First Ministe...; Martyn Day | 631 c8WH (Link to this contribution)
I think the hon. Gentleman has probably answered his own question. It was the First Minister’s su...; Christine Jardine | 631 c8WH (Link to this contribution)
While I fully accept that that was the hon. Gentleman’s experience, it was not the experience of ...; Martyn Day | 631 cc8-9WH (Link to this contribution)
There is clearly an attempt to rewrite history: the word “democratic” has been erased and replace...; Douglas Ross | 631 c9WH (Link to this contribution)
On a point of order, Mr Bailey. I ask you to reflect on the earlier point of order, along with pa...; Adrian Bailey | 631 c9WH (Link to this contribution)
Order. If the hon. Gentleman remembers, I said that that was not a point of order. He cannot make...; Douglas Ross | 631 c9WH (Link to this contribution)
We are now looking at the entire 26-minute speech by the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falk...; Adrian Bailey | 631 cc9-10WH (Link to this contribution)
Order. The hon. Gentleman is making a point of debate.
Before I call the next speaker, may ...; Douglas Ross | 631 c10WH (Link to this contribution)
Thank you very much, Mr Bailey. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I say not as a...; Brendan O'Hara | 631 c10WH (Link to this contribution)
Could the hon. Gentleman expand on the idea of central belt bias? Argyll and Bute takes in everyt...; Douglas Ross | 631 c10WH (Link to this contribution)
It certainly does not vote SNP in the north-east, where I overturned an SNP majority of more than...; Jamie Stone | 631 c10WH (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman will agree with me that it is no surprise that, for that matter, electors do n...; Douglas Ross | 631 c10WH (Link to this contribution)
Absolutely—the hon. Gentleman makes a point that I hope to expand for the hon. Member for Argyll ...; Adrian Bailey | 631 c11WH (Link to this contribution)
Order. I am trying to ensure that everyone has an opportunity to speak. If I feel that anyone is ...; Douglas Ross | 631 c11WH (Link to this contribution)
Thank you, Mr Bailey. I could go on to mention the failures of the SNP Government over the common...; Martin Whitfield | 631 cc11-3WH (Link to this contribution)
It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bailey. I offer my congratulations to the Pe...; John Lamont | 631 c13WH (Link to this contribution)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bailey. As we have already heard, this deba...; David Linden | 631 c13WH (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?; John Lamont | 631 cc13-4WH (Link to this contribution)
I will make a bit more progress.
I do not dispute that the debate over our country’s future...; Jamie Stone | 631 cc14-5WH (Link to this contribution)
It will come as no surprise to the hon. Members gathered here today that I have no intention of s...; Douglas Ross | 631 c15WH (Link to this contribution)
Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that, while the petition against a second independence r...; Jamie Stone | 631 c15WH (Link to this contribution)
We have to move away from that language. I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s sentiments, and I also...; Ronnie Cowan | 631 c15WH (Link to this contribution)
I want to redress this imbalance. My constituents in Inverclyde voted almost 50:50; we lost by 86...; Jamie Stone | 631 c15WH (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman said himself that it was 50:50. I wish I had a TARDIS and could transport him ...; Luke Graham | 631 cc15-7WH (Link to this contribution)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bailey. In this year’s general election cam...; Ian Murray | 631 cc17-8WH (Link to this contribution)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bailey. I am slightly disappointed, as are ...; Angus Brendan MacNeil | 631 c18WH (Link to this contribution)
One of the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues who I was on the radio with said that if Scotland voted no...; Ian Murray | 631 cc18-9WH (Link to this contribution)
There has been a democratic vote, and a democratic petition on how it went has been put to the Pe...; Bill Grant | 631 c19WH (Link to this contribution)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bailey. I will be very brief.
The Edi...; Angus Brendan MacNeil | 631 c19WH (Link to this contribution)
I am an Anglophile. What is derogatory about being called an Anglophile?; Bill Grant | 631 c19WH (Link to this contribution)
Nothing, but it came with associated words that I will not use in this Chamber. The hon. Gentlema...; Angus Brendan MacNeil | 631 c19WH (Link to this contribution)
I am a supporter of the English.; Bill Grant | 631 c19WH (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman should direct that to the person who said it. I was the recipient of it, so I ...; Brendan O'Hara | 631 c20WH (Link to this contribution)
I don’t think you will enjoy reading this one back.; Bill Grant | 631 c20WH (Link to this contribution)
It is there to be seen. I am sorry if the hon. Gentleman cannot see the comparison I am making, b...; David Linden | 631 c20WH (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman seems to be making some disparaging remarks about Police Scotland. Does he not...; Bill Grant | 631 c20WH (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I never mentioned crime statistics. I mentioned...; David Linden | 631 c20WH (Link to this contribution)
It is at a 43-year low.; Bill Grant | 631 c20WH (Link to this contribution)
No, the statement I made was nothing to do with that. I said that Scotland had no chief constable...; Christine Jardine | 631 cc20-1WH (Link to this contribution)
I value as least as much as everyone else in this room the right to petition Parliament and hold ...; Pete Wishart | 631 c21WH (Link to this contribution)
I thought the Liberal Democrats were for a second referendum. Is it not the case that the Liberal...; Christine Jardine | 631 c21WH (Link to this contribution)
When they observed what the hon. Gentleman calls a contradictory position, they voted for us and ...; Pete Wishart | 631 c21WH (Link to this contribution)
You are for a second referendum.; Christine Jardine | 631 c21WH (Link to this contribution)
No, I am for a first referendum on the actual deal, which is a very different thing.
The co...; Douglas Chapman | 631 c21WH (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Lady has talked exclusively and quite widely about the mandate. Will she accept that the...; Christine Jardine | 631 cc21-2WH (Link to this contribution)
If we look at what happened in 2016, we see that fewer people voted for the SNP, and fewer people...; Lord Jack of Courance | 631 c22WH (Link to this contribution)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bailey.
Today’s debate is on two oppo...; Ged Killen | 631 c23WH (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?; Lord Jack of Courance | 631 c23WH (Link to this contribution)
I shall make some progress first.
That message resonated with Scots right across the countr...; Danielle Rowley | 631 c23WH (Link to this contribution)
On process, does the hon. Gentleman agree with me? My constituents have written to me, saying tha...; Lord Jack of Courance | 631 c23WH (Link to this contribution)
Yes, I do agree—[Laughter]—as hon. Members will not be surprised to hear.
Before becoming a...; Brendan O'Hara | 631 c23WH (Link to this contribution)
In the spirit of “Better Together”, which is very much in evidence this afternoon, does the hon. ...; Lord Jack of Courance | 631 c24WH (Link to this contribution)
All I will say to that is that if I had my way, we would wait even longer. For that reason, I sha...; Paul Sweeney | 631 cc24-5WH (Link to this contribution)
It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bailey. I will keep my remarks brief so that...; Ross Thomson | 631 c25WH (Link to this contribution)
I am really grateful to the hon. Gentleman for taking my intervention. Let us be clear: during th...; Paul Sweeney | 631 c25WH (Link to this contribution)
I reject that assertion. The very thing that continues to rend the fabric of the Union is intract...; Douglas Chapman | 631 c26WH (Link to this contribution)
On the point about a third option. I believe that third option was actually put by the First Mini...; Paul Sweeney | 631 c26WH (Link to this contribution)
It was rejected by David Cameron, who, as I think we can all agree, will probably go down as the ...; Paul Masterton | 631 cc26-7WH (Link to this contribution)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bailey. I welcome the opportunity to speak ...; Alan Brown | 631 cc27-8WH (Link to this contribution)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger.
These two petitions are large...; Andrew Bowie | 631 c28WH (Link to this contribution)
Did the hon. Gentleman also take issue with the pejorative language in the yes petition, which st...; Alan Brown | 631 c28WH (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman can make that inference. I would not make that argument. I probably would not ...; Andrew Bowie | 631 c28WH (Link to this contribution)
That is what it is saying.; Alan Brown | 631 c28WH (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman is making that inference; I am not.
We keep hearing today about divisive...; David Mundell | 631 c28WH (Link to this contribution)
On that point—; Alan Brown | 631 c28WH (Link to this contribution)
I will let the Secretary of State in.; David Mundell | 631 c28WH (Link to this contribution)
It is a mythology that has been created. The issue at the core of the debate about the EU in the ...; Alan Brown | 631 cc28-9WH (Link to this contribution)
Quite simply, Better Together put out campaign literature that said, “How to secure membership of...; Christine Jardine | 631 c29WH (Link to this contribution)
Surely that is more about the impact of leaving the EU than it is about the impact of leaving the...; Alan Brown | 631 c29WH (Link to this contribution)
I think the hon. Lady is conflating her confused position, where the Lib Dems are arguing no to a...; Kirstene Hair | 631 c29WH (Link to this contribution)
Since September 2014, there have been more than 70 polls taken across Scotland that have consiste...; Alan Brown | 631 c29WH (Link to this contribution)
In 2016 the SNP at Holyrood stood on a manifesto that reserved the right to hold a referendum. It...; Paul Masterton | 631 c29WH (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman says that even though the SNP at Holyrood lost a majority, it has a mandate to...; Alan Brown | 631 c29WH (Link to this contribution)
There is the difference of opinion: 62% of the voters in Scotland voted to remain in the EU; 71% ...; Christine Jardine | 631 c29WH (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?; Alan Brown | 631 c29WH (Link to this contribution)
I was finishing addressing the previous point, but yes I will now give way.; Christine Jardine | 631 c29WH (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman makes much of the 62%, but 62% of the electorate in the last general election ...; Alan Brown | 631 c30WH (Link to this contribution)
No, it does not. Hon. Members have made interventions saying, “The SNP should listen,” “Nobody wa...; Jamie Stone | 631 c30WH (Link to this contribution)
Is it not the case that those of us who oppose another referendum are in fact doing the hon. Gent...; Alan Brown | 631 c30WH (Link to this contribution)
We will see what happens in the future, but at least I am here and the hon. Gentleman is receptiv...; Paul Sweeney | 631 c30WH (Link to this contribution)
I point out that the independence White Paper only promised that two offshore patrol vessels woul...; Alan Brown | 631 c30WH (Link to this contribution)
I would argue that more boats were promised for a future independent Scotland. The hon. Gentleman...; David Linden | 631 c30WH (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is speaking eloquently. Does he share my surprise that when the Conservative party...; Alan Brown | 631 cc30-1WH (Link to this contribution)
I agree fully. Now we are hearing that it is not to buy the votes of the Democratic Unionist part...; Jo Swinson | 631 c31WH (Link to this contribution)
The person expressing what the hon. Gentleman says is a personal view was the First Minister of S...; Alan Brown | 631 c31WH (Link to this contribution)
He said that it was his view. As we all know, in the democratic process, even elected Governments...; Andrew Bowie | 631 c31WH (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman calls it Alex Salmond’s view, but those are the exact same words that Nicola S...; Alan Brown | 631 c31WH (Link to this contribution)
I think that the key word there is “possibly”.; Martyn Day | 631 c31WH (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps what Alex Salmond was hinting at was that when the devolution referendums took place, it ...; Alan Brown | 631 c31WH (Link to this contribution)
If the facts change, we have the right to change our minds in line with the facts, and we weigh t...; Martin Whitfield | 631 c31WH (Link to this contribution)
On a point of order, Sir Roger. At the start of this debate, it was indicated that those on the B...; Roger Gale | 631 c31WH (Link to this contribution)
That is a point of order for the Chair. My understanding from my predecessor in the Chair is that...; Alan Brown | 631 c32WH (Link to this contribution)
I am indeed, Sir Roger. I let the hon. Gentleman’s colleague, the hon. Member for Glasgow North E...; Stephen Kerr | 631 cc32-3WH (Link to this contribution)
It is an honour to serve here under your chairmanship, Sir Roger, and to take part in this debate...; Patrick Grady | 631 c33WH (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman says that British identity is good but that nationalism is a divisive ideology...; Stephen Kerr | 631 c33WH (Link to this contribution)
In the context that the hon. Gentleman refers to British nationalism, I am not a British national...; Jo Swinson | 631 cc33-5WH (Link to this contribution)
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger, and to take part in the debat...; Colin Clark | 631 cc35-6WH (Link to this contribution)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. This debate is about a second indep...; Alan Brown | 631 c36WH (Link to this contribution)
Is the hon. Gentleman arguing that manifesto commitments have legitimacy only if a Government hav...; Colin Clark | 631 cc36-7WH (Link to this contribution)
If the hon. Gentleman lets me carry on, I will get to the explanation.
As the hon. Member f...; Hugh Gaffney | 631 cc37-8WH (Link to this contribution)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. As Member of Parliament for Coatbri...; Alan Brown | 631 c38WH (Link to this contribution)
The SNP is clearly leading the way in doing away with the public sector pay cap. Does he agree wi...; Hugh Gaffney | 631 cc38-9WH (Link to this contribution)
I am going to move on.
Our country is in crisis. The challenge of Brexit was another divisi...; Ross Thomson | 631 c39WH (Link to this contribution)
It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. This has been a lively debate and I ...; Alan Brown | 631 c39WH (Link to this contribution)
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it was a mistake for the Scottish Conservatives to oppose 16 a...; Ross Thomson | 631 cc39-40WH (Link to this contribution)
Scottish Conservatives actually advocate that those who are 16 or 17 should have the right to vot...; Andrew Bowie | 631 cc40-2WH (Link to this contribution)
Thank you, Sir Roger, for calling me to speak despite the fact that I have not stood up since you...; Tommy Sheppard | 631 c41WH (Link to this contribution)
Sir Roger, you had the misfortune not to witness, although you will have heard about it, the hon....; Douglas Ross | 631 c41WH (Link to this contribution)
On a point of order, Sir Roger, could you clarify whether you have been unable to call a number o...; Roger Gale | 631 c41WH (Link to this contribution)
Due to the self-denying ordinance of all hon. Members, all those who indicated that they wished t...; Tommy Sheppard | 631 cc43-4WH (Link to this contribution)
Sir Roger, I none the less rest my case. Anyone looking at the transcript of the debate will see ...; Bill Grant | 631 c44WH (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?; Tommy Sheppard | 631 c44WH (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman must have difficulty hearing; I said I was not taking any interventions. Pleas...; Roger Gale | 631 c44WH (Link to this contribution)
Order.; Tommy Sheppard | 631 cc44-5WH (Link to this contribution)
We put that commitment in the manifesto, and we won that election. A majority of the Members of t...; Lesley Laird | 631 cc45-6WH (Link to this contribution)
It is a pleasure to respond to this debate and to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. I cam...; Roger Gale | 631 c46WH (Link to this contribution)
Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Lady. I understand that many Members present come from a ...; Lesley Laird | 631 cc46-7WH (Link to this contribution)
I thank you, Sir Roger, for your intervention and advice.
The irony of all of these issues ...; Andrew Bowie | 631 c47WH (Link to this contribution)
On a point of order, Sir Roger. I am not sure this is a point of order, but there is only one way...; Roger Gale | 631 c47WH (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman is extremely perceptive: it is not a point of order.; Lesley Laird | 631 c47WH (Link to this contribution)
I will continue, following that non-point of order.
Our pledge to introduce a real living w...; Alan Brown | 631 c47WH (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Lady give way?; Lesley Laird | 631 cc47-8WH (Link to this contribution)
Not yet. I wish to make some progress.
However, we also accept the need to revisit the dist...; David Mundell | 631 cc48-9WH (Link to this contribution)
I am delighted to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger, and I commend Mr Bailey for his earli...; Ged Killen | 631 c49WH (Link to this contribution)
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that if we were to accept demands for a second independence r...; David Mundell | 631 cc49-50WH (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman is correct. We were told in the Edinburgh agreement that the result would be r...; Martyn Day | 631 c50WH (Link to this contribution)
I apologise to the hon. Members for Stirling (Stephen Kerr) and Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Lesley...
Subjects: Devolution Referendums Scotland Sovereignty UK membership of EU Brexit
Link: View this Parliamentary proceeding on hansard.parliament.uk

Referendum on Scottish Independence

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