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Opposition day and e-petition debate on Tuesday, 13 March 2012, in the House of Commons, led by Andy Burnham. The answering members were Lord Lansley and Lord Lansley.

Health and Social Care Bill

Unallotted opposition day debate (half day). Motion that this House notes the e-petition signed by 170,000 people calling on the Government to drop the Health and Social Care Bill. Amendment negatived on division (260 to 314). Main question negatived on division (258 to 314).

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
542 c159-214 
Session
2010-12
Department
Department of Health
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Proceeding contributions
Speaker | 542 c159 (Link to this contribution) We come now to the main business and to the Opposition motion in the name of the Leader of the Oppos...
Andy Burnham | 542 c175 (Link to this contribution) I should just point out that the Secretary of State is trading on the successful legacy he inherited...
Show all contributions (180)
Lord Lansley | 542 c175 (Link to this contribution) All right, I will give way, but the right hon. Gentleman might like to explain why in the year befor...
Lord Lansley | 542 c176 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way. Let me just make it absolutely clear that reform is happening and it will be s...
Lord Lansley | 542 c176 (Link to this contribution) I was right, was I not, that the weaker the right hon. Gentleman's argument, the stronger the tone? ...
Stella Creasy | 542 c177 (Link to this contribution) This weekend I met 80 women from Walthamstow who are desperately concerned because we do not have a ...
Stephen Dorrell | 542 c178-9 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for South Shields (David Miliband) and it was notab...
David Miliband | 542 c177-8 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important point. Far from driving the health service towards a coherent visi...
Stephen Dorrell | 542 c179 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman knows that there is room for more than one view about the extent to which t...
Andy Burnham | 542 c179 (Link to this contribution) If this Bill simply continues our policy, why does it rewrite the entire legal structure of the nati...
Lord Lansley | 542 c172-3 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her initiative in bringing doctors, dentists and nurses together...
Lord Lansley | 542 c173-4 (Link to this contribution) So now we know, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is sheer invention. There is nothing in the Bill that creates ...
Andy Burnham | 542 c173 (Link to this contribution) I will tell the Secretary of State what I am against. I am against the rewriting of the entire legal...
Lord Lansley | 542 c173 (Link to this contribution) All right, I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman one more time. Come on, then: let us find out...
Lord Lansley | 542 c175 (Link to this contribution) No, because I am going to tell the right hon. Gentleman what he did not admit. Reform is going ahead...
Andy Burnham | 542 c175 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
Lord Lansley | 542 c174-5 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important point. When Labour Members talk about the private sector in the NH...
Paul Uppal | 542 c174 (Link to this contribution) The real issue in the debate is between long-termism and short-termism. Is not the reality that the ...
Andy Burnham | 542 c175 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
Lord Lansley | 542 c172 (Link to this contribution) The short answer to that is no. If one wishes to arrive at a place where the clinical commissioning ...
Andy Burnham | 542 c172 (Link to this contribution) I made the Secretary of State an offer in my opening remarks. I said I would work with him to introd...
Lord Lansley | 542 c171 (Link to this contribution) Let us try this one. For the first time the Bill introduces in clause 3 a duty that embeds the need ...
Lord Lansley | 542 c171 (Link to this contribution) I will give way in moment. The right hon. Gentleman said he was in favour of practice-based commissi...
Baroness Bray of Coln | 542 c172 (Link to this contribution) I thank my right hon. Friend for that, and I thank him, too, for coming to Acton last week and spend...
Lord Lansley | 542 c169-70 (Link to this contribution) There is absolutely nothing in the Bill that promotes or permits the transfer of NHS activities to t...
Speaker | 542 c169 (Link to this contribution) Order. Interventions must be curtailed.
Simon Hughes | 542 c169 (Link to this contribution) Will the Health Secretary amplify his answer to our Scottish National party colleague, the hon. Memb...
Lord Lansley | 542 c169 (Link to this contribution) That is indeed true, and my hon. Friend will also be aware—the Future Forum was clear about this—tha...
Duncan Hames | 542 c169 (Link to this contribution) Further to the list of changes to the Bill that the Health Secretary has outlined, will he confirm t...
Lord Lansley | 542 c168-9 (Link to this contribution) No. In the space of under two years, my right hon. and hon. Friends at the Department and I have de...
John Pugh | 542 c170 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman has just mentioned reform. In 2009, he said in this place:"““Organisational...
Lord Lansley | 542 c170-1 (Link to this contribution) We know that it is necessary for us to reform in order to deliver the improvements that the NHS need...
Chris Skidmore | 542 c186-7 (Link to this contribution) We have already heard one Labour Member say that she welcomes the new measures on health inequalitie...
Chris Skidmore | 542 c185-6 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not. The right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) did not give way to me, I am afraid, ...
Andy Burnham | 542 c186 (Link to this contribution) We are supporting the amendment.
Chris Skidmore | 542 c186 (Link to this contribution) I am talking about the right hon. Member for South Shields, not the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew ...
David Burrowes | 542 c186 (Link to this contribution) All our constituents will be listening intently to the debate and will hear that following the healt...
Joan Walley | 542 c185 (Link to this contribution) Yes, in 10 minutes, because we need time to sort out the NHS. What will the Government do about foun...
Chris Skidmore | 542 c185 (Link to this contribution) It is an honour to speak in this debate. I thought that I should set out the context of our discuss...
David Anderson | 542 c185 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Joan Walley | 542 c184-5 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not. I agree with theright hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell), who chairs the Health...
Adrian Sanders | 542 c189 (Link to this contribution) One of the problems that my constituents have is that they have experienced integrated health care i...
Andrew Selous | 542 c189-90 (Link to this contribution) All I can say to the hon. Gentleman is that in my area the current structures are not dealing adequa...
Karl Turner | 542 c189 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says that he met 400 people in his constituency, not one of whom mentioned their ...
Andrew Selous | 542 c189 (Link to this contribution) I am aware of one GP in my constituency who has concerns about the reforms. The overwhelming majorit...
Andrew Selous | 542 c189 (Link to this contribution) I will make a little progress. I also say to Opposition Members that the GPs of Bedfordshire are th...
Gerald Kaufman | 542 c187-8 (Link to this contribution) If there are three letters in the English language that resonate in practically every household in t...
Andrew Selous | 542 c188 (Link to this contribution) Like all Government Members, I am absolutely committed to the principles of the NHS: that it should ...
Grahame Morris | 542 c187 (Link to this contribution) On the hon. Gentleman's point about efficiency, costs and so on, I draw his attention to an article ...
Chris Skidmore | 542 c187 (Link to this contribution) We are reinvesting the billions of pounds saved on managers into front-line care, and that is why we...
Robert Flello | 542 c181 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend give way on that point?
Valerie Vaz | 542 c181 (Link to this contribution) No, I am sorry. [Interruption.] Okay.
Robert Flello | 542 c181 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to my hon. Friend. My persuasive charms work. Does my hon. Friend share the conce...
Valerie Vaz | 542 c181 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important point. He should read the front page of the left-leaning newspaper...
Valerie Vaz | 542 c181-2 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but I have nearly finished my speech and must press on. There was a chorus of disapprov...
Joan Ruddock | 542 c179 (Link to this contribution) In answer to a recent parliamentary question I asked about waiting lists, Ministers told me that the...
Stephen Dorrell | 542 c179-80 (Link to this contribution) One of the effects of the Bill will be to integrate the private sector more fully in the delivery of...
Valerie Vaz | 542 c180 (Link to this contribution) It is always a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell), the Chair of the...
Andrew George | 542 c184 (Link to this contribution) I cannot at this stage. I am sorry about that. I urge the Government to reflect on this debate and ...
David Anderson | 542 c183 (Link to this contribution) For the purposes of clarification, would the summit that the hon. Gentleman's amendment puts forward...
Andrew George | 542 c183-4 (Link to this contribution) The summit should be as inclusive as possible—so that there is no sense of it being exclusive. The p...
Joan Walley | 542 c184 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the opportunity to follow the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George), and the Hou...
Andy Burnham | 542 c183 (Link to this contribution) I am listening very carefully to the hon. Gentleman, but may I push him a little? He says that the B...
Andrew George | 542 c183 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is aware that the conference was advisory on the issue. The motion before i...
Valerie Vaz | 542 c182 (Link to this contribution) It is true. This has become personal. The NHS is an organisation in which miracles sometimes happen,...
Andrew George | 542 c182-3 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from ““Bill;”” to end and add:"““declines to support the Bi...
Jonathan Reynolds | 542 c190-1 (Link to this contribution) I will speak in favour of the Government dropping this truly awful piece of legislation. Before I d...
Jonathan Reynolds | 542 c191 (Link to this contribution) The Government are just not willing to listen to the people who will be affected by the Bill. Kailas...
Simon Burns | 542 c191 (Link to this contribution) So that everyone fully understands the background, will the hon. Gentleman confirm that this same do...
Jonathan Reynolds | 542 c191-2 (Link to this contribution) No, sit down and listen for once. It is clear that the majority of non-biased, objective opinion is...
Simon Burns | 542 c191 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Jonathan Reynolds | 542 c192 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend. If the Bill is passed, perhaps one of the biggest changes will be to th...
Baroness Brown of Silvertown | 542 c192 (Link to this contribution) During the Bill's passage, it has struck me just how vulnerable my constituents will be to doctors w...
Jonathan Reynolds | 542 c192-3 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is, as ever, correct. He knows that the problem that all parts of the health service ...
Jim Cunningham | 542 c192 (Link to this contribution) Government Members have said that the Government will spend an extra £12.5 billion on the NHS. Yet U...
John Pugh | 542 c193-4 (Link to this contribution) I was cut off when I previously spoke on the subject. Perhaps that was welcome, because I was quotin...
Baroness Morgan of Cotes | 542 c196 (Link to this contribution) I rise tonight to oppose the motion and the amendment. The motion is clear on the e-petition, on cal...
Bill Esterson | 542 c195 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend describes a GP in her constituency, but a GP in mine described his concern to me. He ...
Baroness Keeley | 542 c194-5 (Link to this contribution) I want to speak in support of the motion, which notes the e-petition and declines to support the Bil...
Baroness Morgan of Cotes | 542 c196 (Link to this contribution) We could talk about the number of people who have taken part in the Royal Colleges petitions.
Baroness Morgan of Cotes | 542 c196 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman wants to talk about maths or numbers—
Karl Turner | 542 c196 (Link to this contribution) I am obliged to the hon. Lady for giving way. The mere fact that more than 170,000 people have signe...
Baroness Morgan of Cotes | 542 c196 (Link to this contribution) Well, 175,000 have signed the petition, but there are nigh on 60 million people in this country.
Karl Turner | 542 c196 (Link to this contribution) I am talking about the 170,000 people who signed the petition. What are you talking about?
Meg Hillier | 542 c161 (Link to this contribution) I have here a letter to the Prime Minister from Dr Clare Highton and Dr Haren Patel, the chairs of C...
Andy Burnham | 542 c160 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not. To proceed as planned risks profound damage to the relationships of trust that unde...
George Howarth | 542 c161 (Link to this contribution) Yesterday I was at a meeting with people with diabetes who expressed grave concern that they do not ...
Andy Burnham | 542 c161 (Link to this contribution) I think that Government Members are misjudging the mood of the country, and particularly of health p...
Lord Lansley | 542 c160 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, but before we move beyond that point will he confirm that...
Andy Burnham | 542 c159 (Link to this contribution) I will in a moment. There is huge concern in the country about the Bill, but the Government and Par...
Simon Burns | 542 c160 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Andy Burnham | 542 c160 (Link to this contribution) Dr Chand is not an adviser to the Labour party, and the Secretary of State, in seeking to inject tha...
Sajid Javid | 542 c160 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Andy Burnham | 542 c160 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not. We have arrived at a dangerous moment, not only for the NHS but for our democracy. ...
Andy Burnham | 542 c163 (Link to this contribution) I wish the Government would listen to voices such as the student nurse that my hon. Friend the Membe...
Speaker | 542 c163 (Link to this contribution) Order. We must have shorter interventions. A lot of people want to speak and we have got to get on w...
Andy Burnham | 542 c161 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way. As I said, we need to see whether we can find common ground and put the NHS be...
Andy Burnham | 542 c161 (Link to this contribution) I am aware of the concerns expressed by Diabetes UK and, indeed, by many other organisations represe...
Andy Burnham | 542 c162-3 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Lady. It is that ideology that the NHS and health professionals are rejecting....
Caroline Lucas | 542 c162 (Link to this contribution) Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is ideology, not evidence-based policy, that is driving ...
Andy Burnham | 542 c162 (Link to this contribution) Those factors demand service reform. I remind the hon. Gentleman that he stood at the election for a...
George Howarth | 542 c167 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State quoted Plato earlier. Does he recall the advice that Cromwell gave to Members...
Lord Lansley | 542 c166-7 (Link to this contribution) As a learned man, Mr Deputy Speaker, you will recall that Plato said that"““empty vessels make the l...
Andy Burnham | 542 c164 (Link to this contribution) Just one second. I have said that I want to give hon. Members a chance to comment in the debate, and...
Sajid Javid | 542 c164 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Andy Burnham | 542 c165-6 (Link to this contribution) No. The Opposition have said that the plans will bring huge variation and a postcode lottery writ l...
Lord Sharma | 542 c164 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Andy Burnham | 542 c164 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I cannot read all the intricate smoke signals of a Lib Dem conference, but to my si...
Simon Hughes | 542 c163 (Link to this contribution) Just so that the right hon. Gentleman is clear, the motion that the Liberal Democrats passed on Sund...
Andy Burnham | 542 c164 (Link to this contribution) I will not. Rather than just reel off statistics about elective waiting times, I ask the Secretary ...
Sajid Javid | 542 c164 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord Lansley | 542 c167 (Link to this contribution) I do not think the right hon. Gentleman should quote Cromwell to a Cambridgeshire MP; I think I know...
Karl Turner | 542 c168 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
Anne Main | 542 c168 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend share my absolute astonishment at Labour Members' collective amnesia when ...
Lord Lansley | 542 c168 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is completely wrong. The private income cap for foundation trust...
Stewart Hosie | 542 c168 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State said some moments ago that the Bill had all been debated in this House, but o...
Lord Lansley | 542 c168 (Link to this contribution) Let me just say this to the hon. Member for Barnsley East (Michael Dugher), who is sitting on the Op...
Speaker | 542 c168 (Link to this contribution) Order. Front Benchers need to be a little calmer. A lot of Members want to be called, and we want to...
Lord Lansley | 542 c167 (Link to this contribution) What do I know about the health service? I have been at the Government and Opposition Dispatch Boxes...
Michael Dugher | 542 c167 (Link to this contribution) What do you know about the health service?
Lord Lansley | 542 c159 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Chris Skidmore | 542 c159 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Andy Burnham | 542 c159 (Link to this contribution) No. I have been listening to the strictures from the Chair, and I want to get into my speech so that...
Andy Burnham | 542 c159 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move,"That this House notes the e-petition signed by 170,000 people calling on the Governme...
Diane Abbott | 542 c206-7 (Link to this contribution) The British public, as I think everyone here acknowledges, has a great care and concern for the nati...
Grahame Morris | 542 c205-6 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not. The Health Secretary's problem is that no one voted for these reforms. He has no ma...
Diane Abbott | 542 c207-8 (Link to this contribution) Time is against me, I am afraid. The final thing that ordinary health service workers would wish me...
Simon Burns | 542 c208-9 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel), who observed in her vigorous and pu...
Simon Burns | 542 c209 (Link to this contribution) No, because I have no time. I urge hon. Members to reflect—
Andy Burnham | 542 c209 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Simon Burns | 542 c209-10 (Link to this contribution) No, because I have no time. I have only five minutes. The right hon. Gentleman was seductive in his...
Speaker | 542 c196 (Link to this contribution) Order. Mr Turner, do not shout over the Chamber. Either intervene or listen to the points that are b...
Pat Glass | 542 c198-9 (Link to this contribution) I was contacted last week by a constituent of mine, Ruth Murphy, who told me that she had waited mor...
Baroness Morgan of Cotes | 542 c197 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for his point and the measured way in which he made it. That is welcome i...
Baroness Morgan of Cotes | 542 c197 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. After many, many weeks on the Health and Social Care Bill Committee...
Grahame Morris | 542 c197 (Link to this contribution) On the charges of scaremongering, is the hon. Lady aware that the George Eliot hospital in Nuneaton ...
Baroness Morgan of Cotes | 542 c197-8 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for clarifying that. The shadow Secretary of State talked about try...
John Healey | 542 c198 (Link to this contribution) It is good to follow the hon. Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan). Hers was an heroically loyal a...
Baroness Morgan of Cotes | 542 c197 (Link to this contribution) That could be the voluntary sector or the community sector. They are all private. If someone has a p...
Daniel Byles | 542 c197 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) will be aware that the George Eliot hospital is on...
Jim Shannon | 542 c199 (Link to this contribution) Like many in the House, the right hon. Gentleman will have received a lot of correspondence from pro...
John Healey | 542 c199 (Link to this contribution) Sadly, Ruth Murphy's experience is more and more common. By the end of last year, the number of peop...
Rushanara Ali | 542 c201-2 (Link to this contribution) I welcome today's motion on the Health and Social Care Bill, because I know how precious the NHS is....
Rushanara Ali | 542 c202 (Link to this contribution) Yes, thousands. I have had thousands of letters and e-mails from constituents—members of the public,...
John Healey | 542 c199-200 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right. One of the great tragedies here is that the Government have squandered ...
Yasmin Qureshi | 542 c200 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend give way?
John Healey | 542 c200 (Link to this contribution) I will not, as I have less than a minute left. Release of the transition risk register is now urgen...
Gordon Birtwistle | 542 c200-1 (Link to this contribution) Let me follow on from what the previous speaker said about the legacy of the Labour party by express...
Rushanara Ali | 542 c202 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but I will not be able to give way. Those people are opposed to the Bill. They have bee...
Rushanara Ali | 542 c202-3 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. This Bill is effectively a form of backdoor privatisation of the N...
Speaker | 542 c202 (Link to this contribution) Order. I do not need any help chairing this debate; what I need is for Members to listen. If they wa...
Jim Shannon | 542 c204 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman share the concerns of many Members on the Opposition Benches—and, I suspect,...
Priti Patel | 542 c204 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I mentioned front-line patient care in all our constituencies. T...
Grahame Morris | 542 c204 (Link to this contribution) I want to pay tribute to all the hard-working individuals who work in the national health service, a...
Priti Patel | 542 c203-4 (Link to this contribution) No, at my constituents, actually. The Bill will bring much-needed front-line NHS resources to my con...
Paul Uppal | 542 c204 (Link to this contribution) Opposition Members often try to portray us as callous and uncaring about the NHS, but is not reform ...
Priti Patel | 542 c203 (Link to this contribution) As in the many other debates that we have had on this Bill, there is a strong sense of déjà vu here ...
Andrew Selous | 542 c205 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Grahame Morris | 542 c205 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid not, as I have very little time. Those people knew that the value of money would be wor...
Grahame Morris | 542 c205 (Link to this contribution) That is precisely our fear, and I hope to develop that argument in a moment. The national health se...
David Miliband | 542 c176-7 (Link to this contribution) I rise today to make a simple point to Ministers and their supporters: however acute the embarrassme...
Baroness Keeley | 542 c195-6 (Link to this contribution) I very much agree. Only quite recently have GPs expressed such concern. I have never known GPs to co...
Bill Esterson | 542 c163 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is, as ever, making the case for the NHS, not for the privatisation that the To...
George Freeman | 542 c161-2 (Link to this contribution) I had the great privilege of working in biomedical research in and around the NHS for 15 years befor...
Lord Lansley | 542 c168 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I will come to some of those points. However, I might just s...
Subjects
Disclosure of information Contracts for services Health services NHS Patients Primary care Privatisation Private patients Standards Reorganisation Risk assessment
Legislation
Health and Social Care Bill 2010-12
Link
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