Will the noble Lord give way?

Will the noble Lord give way?

I am grateful to the noble Lord both for raising the case, which he raised on Second Reading, and for referring to the letter that I sent. I will deal with the amendment in two bits. First, I shall say a little about the case from the Government’s perspective, which...

I am grateful to the noble Lord both for raising the case, which he raised on Second Reading, and for referring to the letter that I sent. I will deal with the amendment in two bits. First, I shall say a little about the case from the Government’s perspective, which...

moved Amendment No. 45: Page 8, line 23, at end insert- ““( ) Where- (a) an order under subsection (5)(f) specifies a description of decisions, and (b) decisions of that description are made in carrying out a function transferred under section 29, the order must be framed so as to...

moved Amendment No. 45: Page 8, line 23, at end insert- ““( ) Where- (a) an order under subsection (5)(f) specifies a description of decisions, and (b) decisions of that description are made in carrying out a function transferred under section 29, the order must be framed so as to...

Not at all. It is about looking after the chamber and what goes on in it. The person in charge of that whole area of work is like the head of a division, or whatever. It simply enables two people to preside over the chamber, if, for the reasons that...

Not at all. It is about looking after the chamber and what goes on in it. The person in charge of that whole area of work is like the head of a division, or whatever. It simply enables two people to preside over the chamber, if, for the reasons that...

As my intentions are similarly probing, it will not be necessary for me to take much longer than the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, in speaking to the amendment, to which my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford has attached his name. The Law Society supports this change of language, simply...

As my intentions are similarly probing, it will not be necessary for me to take much longer than the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, in speaking to the amendment, to which my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford has attached his name. The Law Society supports this change of language, simply...

It might be—I choose a deliberately far-fetched example—that the Lord Chancellor takes the view that the former chief justice of Malawi has compiled experience of the kind that would be transferable to a tribunal in this country, perhaps based on the Lord Chancellor’s visit to Malawi 20 years ago and/or...

It might be—I choose a deliberately far-fetched example—that the Lord Chancellor takes the view that the former chief justice of Malawi has compiled experience of the kind that would be transferable to a tribunal in this country, perhaps based on the Lord Chancellor’s visit to Malawi 20 years ago and/or...

I wonder whether the noble Lord would elaborate for me. As a general principle, consultation is a good thing. I am not always in favour of putting things in Bills, because that can restrict what people can do. Will he give me an example of exactly what he means?

I wonder whether the noble Lord would elaborate for me. As a general principle, consultation is a good thing. I am not always in favour of putting things in Bills, because that can restrict what people can do. Will he give me an example of exactly what he means?

I am grateful to the Minister for her explanation. However, it is not wholly satisfactory. I understand the desirability of retaining and providing for the possibility that someone whose legal qualifications do not conform to those set out in paragraph 1(2) of Schedule 2, but which are none the less...

I am grateful to the Minister for her explanation. However, it is not wholly satisfactory. I understand the desirability of retaining and providing for the possibility that someone whose legal qualifications do not conform to those set out in paragraph 1(2) of Schedule 2, but which are none the less...

I could not agree more, but there are not just legal members, but medical members of tribunals who, while not clinging to any title, feel very strongly that their function on a tribunal—I have met many of them to date—is because of their medical expertise. They enjoy and value having...

I could not agree more, but there are not just legal members, but medical members of tribunals who, while not clinging to any title, feel very strongly that their function on a tribunal—I have met many of them to date—is because of their medical expertise. They enjoy and value having...

I take rather a different view to that of the noble Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. I support the amendment for a reason that has been touched on. It seems to me that there is a possibility of confusion between those members who are actually legal members and those legal members—call them...

I take rather a different view to that of the noble Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. I support the amendment for a reason that has been touched on. It seems to me that there is a possibility of confusion between those members who are actually legal members and those legal members—call them...

I entirely agree with the views that have just been expressed. We are making a great song and dance about this. As has been indicated, the people in charge of these tribunals are viewed as being sui generis, and so they should be. Whether we call them judges or legal...

I entirely agree with the views that have just been expressed. We are making a great song and dance about this. As has been indicated, the people in charge of these tribunals are viewed as being sui generis, and so they should be. Whether we call them judges or legal...

I suspect the precedent has already been set for this. I apologise for not having spoken on Second Reading, but I had a clash of appointments and I could not attend the debate. The chairmen of the Asylum and Immigration Tribunal are called judges, and I think that this is...

I suspect the precedent has already been set for this. I apologise for not having spoken on Second Reading, but I had a clash of appointments and I could not attend the debate. The chairmen of the Asylum and Immigration Tribunal are called judges, and I think that this is...

I support the amendment although I do so to some extent in a spirit of inquiry, as I found the noble Lord’s reasoning on Second Reading extremely powerful, particularly his invocation of the arguments for informality and approachability that had been adumbrated by the Franks committee half a century ago...

I support the amendment although I do so to some extent in a spirit of inquiry, as I found the noble Lord’s reasoning on Second Reading extremely powerful, particularly his invocation of the arguments for informality and approachability that had been adumbrated by the Franks committee half a century ago...

No, an assistant.

No, an assistant.

I am particularly delighted to give way to the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis.

I am particularly delighted to give way to the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis.

As I said at Second Reading, I support the view that legal aid should be available under certain circumstances. This amendment tries—I do not know whether in law it succeeds—to encompass that particular point. I find it very difficult to accept the view that legal aid should be somehow hedged,...

As I said at Second Reading, I support the view that legal aid should be available under certain circumstances. This amendment tries—I do not know whether in law it succeeds—to encompass that particular point. I find it very difficult to accept the view that legal aid should be somehow hedged,...

I shall revert briefly to Amendment No. 59 in my name, to which the noble Lord, Lord Newton, has just referred, and will combine it with specific inquiry into the interaction between Clause 22 and the procedures described in Clause 28. I would be grateful if the Minister could enlarge...

I shall revert briefly to Amendment No. 59 in my name, to which the noble Lord, Lord Newton, has just referred, and will combine it with specific inquiry into the interaction between Clause 22 and the procedures described in Clause 28. I would be grateful if the Minister could enlarge...

I accept that. I am certainly not trying to pick a fight with the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis. I was trying to be helpful and friendly towards him, while at the same time gently saying to the Minister that I think that many people are a little concerned about whether...

I accept that. I am certainly not trying to pick a fight with the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis. I was trying to be helpful and friendly towards him, while at the same time gently saying to the Minister that I think that many people are a little concerned about whether...

The whole impression that has been given so far is that legal aid should not be given under any account unless the circumstances of the person concerned are so serious that there is no alternative but to give it. That is quite wrong. Members of the Committee opposite have suggested...

The whole impression that has been given so far is that legal aid should not be given under any account unless the circumstances of the person concerned are so serious that there is no alternative but to give it. That is quite wrong. Members of the Committee opposite have suggested...

It is not obnoxious at all. My noble friend’s views on the matter do not differ greatly from mine or those of the Government. I was trying to make three points. First, that what we value in tribunals in many cases is that it is not necessary for lawyers to...

It is not obnoxious at all. My noble friend’s views on the matter do not differ greatly from mine or those of the Government. I was trying to make three points. First, that what we value in tribunals in many cases is that it is not necessary for lawyers to...