Parliamentary Search

Debate on Thursday, 3 November 2011, in the House of Commons, led by Cheryl Gillan. The answering member was Lord Hain.

Commission on Devolution in Wales

Debate on a motion that this House has considered the matter of the Commission on Devolution in Wales. Motion lapsed.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
534 c1122-203 
Session
2010-12
Department
Wales Office
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Proceeding contributions
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1128 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that matter, particularly as before the debate I was...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1128 (Link to this contribution) That is a matter not so much for me, but for the right hon. Gentleman, who I am sure will want to de...
Show all contributions (298)
Elfyn Llwyd | 534 c1135 (Link to this contribution) I take it that the right hon. Gentleman read the deliberations of the Holtham commission. If so, he ...
Lord Hain | 534 c1135 (Link to this contribution) If the right hon. Gentleman looks at the whole Holtham commission report, he will notice that spendi...
Lord Hain | 534 c1138 (Link to this contribution) If that nonsense is true, why did we have record employment under our Labour Government, why were th...
David TC Davies | 534 c1149 (Link to this contribution) I thank my right hon. Friend for that clarification, but what she says will not help me sleep any mo...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 534 c1190-1 (Link to this contribution) No, that is not the logic at all. If the hon. Gentleman argues in that way, he is arguing against hi...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1175 (Link to this contribution) May I reassure the hon. Gentleman that what I had envisaged was that the major questions—such as ene...
Hywel Williams | 534 c1167 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will recall that that kind of dual mandate was allowed in Scotland...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1167-8 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for that contribution. I do not doubt that his comment is accurate. Anot...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 534 c1168-9 (Link to this contribution) I am genuinely trying to be helpful. I think the hon. Gentleman is saying that he would support the ...
Owen Smith | 534 c1184 (Link to this contribution) With the absolute greatest respect, I find it extraordinary that the Secretary of State should now v...
Nia Griffith | 534 c1198 (Link to this contribution) I hope very much indeed that that bilateral work is progressing quickly and effectively. It is smal...
Roger Williams | 534 c1158-9 (Link to this contribution) I recognise the hon. Gentleman's first point, but not his second. We would all like to see local aut...
Owen Smith | 534 c1190 (Link to this contribution) Is not the logic of that argument that all spending should be devolved to Wales in order for it to b...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1179 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that, incredibly, politicians in Wales are highlighting the fact that once...
Wayne David | 534 c1167 (Link to this contribution) The principle that brought about that change was quite simple. It was that an individual should not ...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1171 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is mixing up the question of fiscal changes, which is what we are discussing, wit...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1172 (Link to this contribution) I did not notice that the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr was seeking to intervene. Earl...
Jonathan Edwards | 534 c1172 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for his courtesy in giving way. As a former Member of my party, he will k...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 534 c1127 (Link to this contribution) I thank the right hon. Lady for giving way again; she is generous. I wish to ask about her position ...
David TC Davies | 534 c1126 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend will be aware, of course, that the loyal county of Monmouthshire voted no in th...
David TC Davies | 534 c1139 (Link to this contribution) I had similar representations from Tata. The company is clearly worried about energy costs rising as...
Alun Michael | 534 c1138 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is amazing to hear Government Members trying to rewrite the ...
David TC Davies | 534 c1146 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right. I have made that view public in the past. I think there is a strong cas...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1147 (Link to this contribution) No doubt my hon. Friend will therefore give a warm welcome to the statement made on 8 September by t...
David TC Davies | 534 c1147-8 (Link to this contribution) I suspect that there may be something in what the right hon. Gentleman says. The referendum on power...
Wayne David | 534 c1141 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend accept that a huge problem in Wales is that the private sector is dependen...
Lord Hain | 534 c1141 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend makes a powerful point that I hope the Silk commission will take account of. I...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1140 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman will therefore be greatly reassured to know that I was at Tata Steel for ou...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 534 c1141 (Link to this contribution) To return to the cross-border issue, in the event of the Silk commission determining that corporatio...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 534 c1141-2 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is generous in giving way again. May I urge him to advocate from the Dispatch B...
Lord Hain | 534 c1141 (Link to this contribution) I will, but then I had better make some progress, because I have been on my feet for a while.
Lord Hain | 534 c1142 (Link to this contribution) I completely agree, and I have been urging that on the Secretary of State in this debate. Cutting VA...
Lord Hain | 534 c1143-4 (Link to this contribution) Labour's Government in Wales are not adopting a back-door privatisation plan for the health service ...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1143 (Link to this contribution) Was it not rather unreasonable of the right hon. Gentleman to say what he did about the health servi...
Lord Hain | 534 c1142 (Link to this contribution) I completely agree; I could not have put it better myself. I hope that the Silk commission will cons...
Jessica Morden | 534 c1142 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend has been generous in giving way, and I agree with him wholeheartedly. What my c...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1125 (Link to this contribution) That is a very constructive intervention, and in my experience the system does work exceedingly well...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1125 (Link to this contribution) We may have had plenty of time in Committee, but not beforehand, and there was no wide or extensive ...
Hywel Williams | 534 c1125 (Link to this contribution) May I just recommend to the House in general, and perhaps to the Silk commission, that the commissio...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1125 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman agrees that we did not have enough time to debate the Richar...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1124-5 (Link to this contribution) If I recall correctly, the Richard commission reported before the Government of Wales Act 2006 was e...
Lord Hain | 534 c1125 (Link to this contribution) I do not understand whether the Secretary of State is saying that we did not have time to debate the...
Alun Cairns | 534 c1124 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) makes a principled point, the logic of which should have...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1124 (Link to this contribution) We proposed to hold this debate before the first meeting of the commission to enable Paul Silk and t...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1125 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman, then I must make some progress.
Elfyn Llwyd | 534 c1125 (Link to this contribution) Further to the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) made, the right hon. ...
Lord Hain | 534 c1133-4 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, Mr Deputy Speaker, I am happy to, and I will not be led astray any more by interventions fro...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 534 c1133 (Link to this contribution) I speak as someone who was here in this Chamber for most, if not all of the 54 hours on the Bill tha...
Lord Hain | 534 c1133 (Link to this contribution) Of course it had to be dealt with in this House, but the impact on Wales received virtually no debat...
Lord Hain | 534 c1132-3 (Link to this contribution) Let me say this to the Secretary of State: when in a hole, stop digging. She knows that she denied M...
Lord Hain | 534 c1135 (Link to this contribution) I accept the hon. Gentleman's point to the extent that Holtham did recognise that when there is a pe...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 534 c1135 (Link to this contribution) To the best of my knowledge, the Holtham report did not mention the fact that in successive years of...
Geraint Davies | 534 c1134 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend accept that given that gross value added in Wales is 74% of the UK average...
Lord Hain | 534 c1134 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a significant point that the Silk commission will need to take account of in it...
Hywel Williams | 534 c1175 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Secretary of State for making that point because her comments and those of othe...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1172-3 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether the most significant change would have to be in income tax. There is an argume...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1173-4 (Link to this contribution) I again thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution. This is a difficult subject. There is clearly...
Jonathan Edwards | 534 c1173 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way again; he is being extremely generous. He will be aware th...
Owen Smith | 534 c1180 (Link to this contribution) I did not say, ““It is not true””, and the hon. Gentleman makes a semantic point, because we are tal...
Alun Cairns | 534 c1180 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that point, but the hon. Gentleman misses the key issue: Labour's failure over 13 ...
Owen Smith | 534 c1180 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman and his colleagues call for accuracy in the context in which we set our remarks a...
Alun Cairns | 534 c1178-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this extremely important debate for Wales, for th...
Hywel Williams | 534 c1177-8 (Link to this contribution) The deal that was eventually reached has pleased no one and has pleased everyone to some extent beca...
Alun Cairns | 534 c1177 (Link to this contribution) In view of the fact that the hon. Gentleman is commenting on S4C, will he congratulate the Secretari...
Alun Cairns | 534 c1180-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful again to my hon. Friend, who highlights an important point. The hon. Member for Pontyp...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1182 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has explained extremely well the issue of the 65% who did not vote. I reiterate that ...
Alun Cairns | 534 c1180 (Link to this contribution) I am stunned by the complacency of the hon. Gentleman, an Opposition Front-Bench Treasury spokesman ...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1184 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing the facts to be stated clearly on the record. The a...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1184 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will no doubt make absolutely every effort to ensure that the Backbench Business ...
Owen Smith | 534 c1184 (Link to this contribution) I do not, at all. I am quoting accurately from my article. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman read it...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1183 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Owen Smith | 534 c1183 (Link to this contribution) It is always a pleasure to follow the perfectly formed hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairn...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 534 c1168 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for being so generous in giving way. Having praised the Holtham report, a...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1168 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. Given that an intergovernmental approach has been ...
Owen Smith | 534 c1168 (Link to this contribution) I do not intend to refer to the quotation in the pamphlet now—I shall do so later, if I may, and per...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1171 (Link to this contribution) I agree with that; I think it would be inappropriate. We know that there is a huge funding gap betwe...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1171 (Link to this contribution) The question of fiscal responsibility does raise issues, therefore. [Interruption.] I was under the ...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1172 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention, but the Labour party has no hope of having me as a member.
Guto Bebb | 534 c1172 (Link to this contribution) This will be the last intervention, because I need to finish.
Wayne David | 534 c1122 (Link to this contribution) Before the right hon. Lady moves on from the subject of the coalition agreement, may I point out tha...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1122 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman knows that my door is always open. We have already spoken to other Departme...
Lord Hain | 534 c1122 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful, and thank the right hon. Lady for that, as will the families and the individuals...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1122 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move,"That this House has considered the matter of the Commission on Devolution in Wales." ...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1122-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman, who was serving in the Wales Office at the time, arranged the timetabling so tha...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 534 c1124 (Link to this contribution) Does the Secretary of State agree that one of the factors that the commission should take into accou...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1123 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman suggests that not all Members are less fearful. That is fair and, in the spirit o...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 534 c1123 (Link to this contribution) Not all of you are. What about the others?
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1123 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is dancing on the head of a pin. This Government gave the people of Wales the opp...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 534 c1123 (Link to this contribution) Before the right hon. Lady takes credit for every achievement, may I ask her to acknowledge that alt...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1124 (Link to this contribution) I could not agree more with the right hon. Gentleman. I refer him to the commission's specifications...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 534 c1124 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State ensure that the commission looks carefully at the impact of the border? ...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1123-4 (Link to this contribution) I do not know what torturous mental processes the hon. Gentleman goes through, but I assure him that...
Geraint Davies | 534 c1123 (Link to this contribution) Is not the real Conservative agenda to offer tax-raising powers in order to freeze the block grant a...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1127-8 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a valid and good point, but once again I do not want to pre-judge or tie th...
David TC Davies | 534 c1128 (Link to this contribution) We are at an early stage in proceedings, but will my right hon. Friend and, perhaps, the right hon. ...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1126 (Link to this contribution) That shows the advantage of this approach to constitutional change: all hon. Members, no matter wher...
Owen Smith | 534 c1126 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Lady give way?
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1126 (Link to this contribution) I have been very generous, and would now like to make some progress. There is no reason why one ins...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1125-6 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman will be very pleased, therefore, that the Assembly now has primary legislat...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1129 (Link to this contribution) May I make a little progress? The commissioners bring a wealth of experience to their important task...
Jonathan Edwards | 534 c1129 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1129 (Link to this contribution) I will give way first to the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr—I have not given way to him...
Jonathan Edwards | 534 c1129 (Link to this contribution) Based on what the Secretary of State says about consensus, which we hope the commission will be able...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 534 c1128 (Link to this contribution) On a point of detail about the possible extension of powers that the Silk commission is considering,...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1128 (Link to this contribution) I am about to come to the composition of the commission, and I will pick up the hon. Gentleman's poi...
Hywel Williams | 534 c1128 (Link to this contribution) I merely wish to note that some distinguished members of the commission are not strictly aligned to ...
Lord Hain | 534 c1131 (Link to this contribution) Let me begin, Mr Deputy Speaker, by welcoming the fact that we have a Welshman in the Chair for this...
Lord Hain | 534 c1131-2 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to take an intervention a little later. I am intrigued by accountability; that is why I ...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1132 (Link to this contribution) All I can say is that, as my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary once remarked, I am a Welshwoman born i...
Lord Hain | 534 c1132 (Link to this contribution) My, my—the Secretary of State sounds rather furious. I seem to have touched a sensitive spot. I shal...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1129-30 (Link to this contribution) It depresses me a great deal to hear hon. Members say that I am kicking the matter into the long gra...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1130 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend can reassure his constituents that no member of the commission is being remunerated. ...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1130 (Link to this contribution) I share the view that the membership is impressive and that it will do a good job, but I have been c...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1130-1 (Link to this contribution) That point was well made. I, too, was concerned, and I looked at the gender balance, having been a f...
Jenny Willott | 534 c1130 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for my voice being about an octave lower than normal. This is not a point I often make, ...
Speaker | 534 c1133 (Link to this contribution) Order. As was intimated by the intervention by Huw Irranca-Davies, we are now straying off the subje...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 534 c1133 (Link to this contribution) This is very pertinent in learning the lessons in terms of how the Silk commission operates. We cann...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1133 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord Hain | 534 c1133 (Link to this contribution) If I am allowed to finish my response to the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing). My other po...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1132 (Link to this contribution) May I put the record straight? As the right hon. Gentleman knows, I gave every Welsh MP the opportun...
Alun Cairns | 534 c1135 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman underlines the fact that the Welsh budget doubled in that period, but will ...
Lord Hain | 534 c1135 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The Welsh budget more than doubled under our Government, and spe...
Lord Hain | 534 c1134-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful. The Secretary of State is confirming, then—I am not challenging her on this point—tha...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1134 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman asked me a direct question, and I will give him a direct answer. Devolved f...
Lord Hain | 534 c1136 (Link to this contribution) I will make a bit of progress, then I will happily take interventions. Holtham calculated that appr...
Jonathan Edwards | 534 c1136-7 (Link to this contribution) The shadow Secretary of State is quoting figures from the Holtham commission, but that commission re...
Lord Hain | 534 c1137 (Link to this contribution) I disagree. I checked with the House of Commons Library, and it was in the same territory as the Hol...
Alun Cairns | 534 c1137 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether the right hon. Gentleman has a brass neck or simply selective hearing or a sel...
Lord Hain | 534 c1137 (Link to this contribution) I am astonished that a Member of Parliament for a Welsh seat is trying to defend the Government's im...
Roger Williams | 534 c1136 (Link to this contribution) Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that reform of the Barnett formula is about not just Wales but S...
Lord Hain | 534 c1136 (Link to this contribution) We are talking about Wales, but I think most people, including the Scots, would concede that Scotlan...
Jonathan Edwards | 534 c1136 (Link to this contribution) As the right hon. Gentleman knows full well, the issue of Barnett will now be dealt with through dis...
Lord Hain | 534 c1136 (Link to this contribution) I do not think I want to turn my guns on the First Minister at all, but I know the hon. Gentleman is...
Geraint Davies | 534 c1136 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Huw Irranca-Davies | 534 c1139-40 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend confirm from the discussions with Tata Steel and others that they are not ...
Lord Hain | 534 c1140 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend, who has expertise in this matter from his previous shadow ministerial job, makes a v...
Lord Hain | 534 c1139 (Link to this contribution) I know that the hon. Gentleman has a reactionary view on the climate change agenda—perhaps that is r...
Geraint Davies | 534 c1137 (Link to this contribution) I have figures from the House of Commons Library on the difference between expenditure and revenue s...
Lord Hain | 534 c1137 (Link to this contribution) That is exactly what I have been arguing. Under devolution-max, as we understand it from the Scotti...
Lord Hain | 534 c1138-9 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend makes a powerful point with great passion precisely because he was one of the p...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1138 (Link to this contribution) Is it not the case that, during the 13 years of Labour Government, the Labour party's ambition for W...
David TC Davies | 534 c1146-7 (Link to this contribution) Of course I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I live on the border as well. Many of my constituents go ...
Mark Tami | 534 c1146 (Link to this contribution) Would the hon. Gentleman not accept that in a border area such as mine, people go across the border ...
David TC Davies | 534 c1147 (Link to this contribution) I do indeed welcome that statement, and I look forward to participating, but I hope that we do not e...
Lord Hain | 534 c1147 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the constitution is delicate and needs to be balanced, but is n...
David TC Davies | 534 c1148 (Link to this contribution) There have been several motives for devolution. Nationalists saw it as a stepping stone towards inde...
Wayne David | 534 c1148 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that until now the primary motivation for devolution has been not...
Owen Smith | 534 c1148 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is, as usual, being generous in giving way. Does he agree that a further crucial ...
David TC Davies | 534 c1148 (Link to this contribution) The answer to the hon. Gentleman's first question is that despite the enormous amount of money spent...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 534 c1148-9 (Link to this contribution) It would be wrong for English MPs alone to discuss, and decide on, such matters. As a UK parliamenta...
Jonathan Edwards | 534 c1150 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman not recognise that currently local authorities in Wales can borrow and raise...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1149 (Link to this contribution) The Silk commission can look at future borrowing, whereas current borrowing is at present the subjec...
David TC Davies | 534 c1149 (Link to this contribution) That is a sensible point, but my peroration has become more of a conversation now, and I wish to ret...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 534 c1151 (Link to this contribution) It is always interesting and a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies)....
David TC Davies | 534 c1150-1 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that getting rid of the Severn bridge toll is impossible, be...
Geraint Davies | 534 c1150 (Link to this contribution) Before the hon. Gentleman leaves the subject of taxation, on the important issue of inward investmen...
David TC Davies | 534 c1150 (Link to this contribution) They can only do so under fairly strict terms of engagement. There is no major difference, but what ...
Lord Hain | 534 c1141 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. I have had many discussions with businesses in Wales that have been severely damaged—som...
Lord Hain | 534 c1140-1 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that the Secretary of State had that conversation, but all I can do is report to the House...
Hywel Williams | 534 c1144 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman seems to be taking a rather ““conspiratorial”” view of these developments in Wels...
David TC Davies | 534 c1144 (Link to this contribution) It is always a pleasure to be here on a Thursday discussing Wales. Unlike some Members, I shall not ...
Lord Hain | 534 c1142-3 (Link to this contribution) I want to make some progress, if my hon. Friend does not mind. If there is time at the end, I will c...
Geraint Davies | 534 c1142 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Jonathan Edwards | 534 c1146 (Link to this contribution) May I take it from the hon. Gentleman's comments that he is arguing for a fully federal United Kingd...
David TC Davies | 534 c1144-6 (Link to this contribution) It is not a conspiratorial view; it is a view based on the history of what has been going on. We see...
Wayne David | 534 c1161-3 (Link to this contribution) Yes, very unfair indeed. He asked how a Member from the south-east of England can have a proper unde...
Nick Smith | 534 c1163 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the principle of devolution, but what people in the towns of Tredegar, Ebbw Vale, Ab...
Wayne David | 534 c1161 (Link to this contribution) I am long-standing supporter of devolution. I believe that it is fundamentally correct for decision ...
Wayne David | 534 c1163 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a very important point. It is essential that we do not consider this as an abst...
Roger Williams | 534 c1160-1 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important point. Even politicians sometimes have a less than perfect grasp o...
Mark Williams | 534 c1160 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, because there is confusion among the general public abo...
Roger Williams | 534 c1159-60 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that if there is a split, my hon. Friend will comment on it later in the debate. I unders...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1159 (Link to this contribution) I was also surprised by the comments of the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain) when he said that ...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1164-5 (Link to this contribution) The reference is to a pamphlet to which the hon. Gentleman contributed that was quoted at length by ...
Lord Hart of Tenby | 534 c1165 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend sympathise with companies such as those in my constituency that have said to the...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1165 (Link to this contribution) I fully accept that. Indeed, I was recently at a CBI event in Flintshire at which exactly the same p...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 534 c1165 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that even though the commission's terms of reference do not include th...
Mark Williams | 534 c1164 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman reassured by the breadth of the commission and the fact that there are represe...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1163 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate, which is an important debate—although that could ...
Wayne David | 534 c1164 (Link to this contribution) My point is simple. Where there is demonstrable need, as in much of Wales, it is morally wrong for t...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1164 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention; it is an issue that I shall touch on later, but yes, I welcome ...
Owen Smith | 534 c1164 (Link to this contribution) I would merely ask the hon. Gentleman to clarify this reference, which he appears to have plucked ou...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1164 (Link to this contribution) It is interesting to note that the Labour Government in Cardiff Bay were planning for 3% cuts per ye...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 534 c1155 (Link to this contribution) But constituencies have nothing to do with better democracy and everything to do with partisanship. ...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 534 c1154-5 (Link to this contribution) That is for the two Governments to discuss. In the House of Commons, we are debating what it is sens...
Nick Smith | 534 c1155 (Link to this contribution) I am interested in my right hon. Friend's point about constituencies. Wherever possible, Assembly co...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 534 c1153-4 (Link to this contribution) I think that if the National Assembly for Wales ever had any tax-raising powers, the system would in...
Roger Williams | 534 c1154 (Link to this contribution) I agree, but it has been suggested that such an approach would not be welcomed by the Welsh Assembly...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 534 c1153 (Link to this contribution) Yes; I am talking in general terms and that may well be an exception. A block grant, based on need, ...
Roger Williams | 534 c1153 (Link to this contribution) I do not think it has ever been suggested that the block grant should be replaced entirely by tax-ra...
Hywel Williams | 534 c1153 (Link to this contribution) There is of course the exception in Spain of the Basque country. I am not arguing for us to adopt th...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 534 c1152-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman knows that historically I was opposed to devolution—I changed my mind as the year...
Alun Cairns | 534 c1152 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman makes an extremely important point about consensus and it is a strong messa...
Roger Williams | 534 c1157-8 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, which brings me to a point I had intended to make later...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 534 c1158 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way in the midst already of several very good contributions, b...
Roger Williams | 534 c1156-7 (Link to this contribution) It is always a privilege and a challenge to follow the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy). ...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 534 c1157 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman refers, rather provocatively for him, to Labour inaction and the fact that great ...
Roger Williams | 534 c1157 (Link to this contribution) I absolutely accept that and am sure that he would accept that Labour had the full support of the Li...
Mark Williams | 534 c1157 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend take some assurance, as I do, from the Secretary of State's words on timetables?...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 534 c1155-6 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not. I accept, though, that there are people in my own party who may agree with some of the...
David TC Davies | 534 c1155 (Link to this contribution) Does the right hon. Gentleman share my concern, then, about colleagues in his own party who refuse t...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 534 c1156 (Link to this contribution) Indeed; I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for telling the House that. In a sense, it confirms my ...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1156 (Link to this contribution) I am enjoying the right hon. Gentleman's contribution and I know that his words will be passed on to...
Nia Griffith | 534 c1197-8 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman will have heard my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain) explain, w...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1196 (Link to this contribution) The Silk commission can look at the boundaries, and that means adjustments in either direction.
Nia Griffith | 534 c1196 (Link to this contribution) We have had a long and full debate, and we have wandered over many subjects. We heard the hon. Membe...
Roger Williams | 534 c1197 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Lady agree that the floor has less applicability in these straitened economic times th...
Nia Griffith | 534 c1196-7 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Secretary of State for that clarification. My right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen ...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 534 c1193-4 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but I will not give way because I need to leave enough time for another person to speak....
Jonathan Edwards | 534 c1194-6 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful, Mr Deputy Speaker. I have curtailed my speech a fair bit because of the time con...
Speaker | 534 c1194 (Link to this contribution) Order. Before I call the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), I suggest t...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 534 c1193 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. People who, like me, are very positive about devolution welcome such maturity and two-way en...
Alun Cairns | 534 c1193 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making an important point, which I think is recognised on both sides of the Ho...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 534 c1191-3 (Link to this contribution) I had intended to speak for about an hour, but I probably intervened for about an hour instead, all ...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 534 c1191 (Link to this contribution) As ever, I thank my right hon. Friend. Those examples illustrate my argument extremely well. There ...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1191 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making a valuable contribution to the debate. It is interesting to note that regio...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 534 c1190 (Link to this contribution) Of course, Mr Deputy Speaker. I was merely illustrating the balance of fairness, and saying that if ...
Speaker | 534 c1190 (Link to this contribution) Order. We are debating devolution, not constituency size. We are in danger of dragging the debate so...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 534 c1189-90 (Link to this contribution) Of course, because some areas of London are desperately in need of help from taxpayers' money. There...
Hywel Williams | 534 c1175-6 (Link to this contribution) There have been persistent complaints from members of the legal profession in Wales and others, incl...
Roger Williams | 534 c1175 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the system is not only complicated but is spread over a great bod...
Hywel Williams | 534 c1174-5 (Link to this contribution) I am somewhat surprised to be called now. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen East ...
Speaker | 534 c1174 (Link to this contribution) Before I call the next speaker, I remind hon. Members that we have six speakers and one hour and 20 ...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 534 c1172 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman refers to significant changes. Does he accept that the most significant change in...
Alun Cairns | 534 c1179 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend underlines my point about the failure of the Cardiff Bay Government to seek to improv...
Hywel Williams | 534 c1176-7 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. As I said, sometimes complexity is good and necess...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 534 c1176 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Silk commission, whatever its outcome, will not get rid of co...
Jonathan Edwards | 534 c1181 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is using, as did the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), the turnout for the r...
Alun Cairns | 534 c1181-2 (Link to this contribution) I am surprised at that intervention, and the low sights that the hon. Gentleman sets for himself. He...
Owen Smith | 534 c1182 (Link to this contribution) Again, I intervene on a point of accuracy. The hon. Gentleman quoted extensively from the Holtham re...
Alun Cairns | 534 c1182 (Link to this contribution) I could not agree more with my hon. Friend, who further underlines the point. The key theme is acco...
Speaker | 534 c1183 (Link to this contribution) Order. We have to be very careful about time now; I think that the length of that speech was rather ...
Alun Cairns | 534 c1182-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman mistakes my recognition of the quality of the Holtham report for an indication th...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1180 (Link to this contribution) When the Welsh Affairs Committee visited Germany recently, the business people whom we met had no id...
Owen Smith | 534 c1184 (Link to this contribution) I suggest that in future the hon. Gentleman needs to do more than take selected excerpts from things...
Owen Smith | 534 c1183 (Link to this contribution) I will give way in a moment. The hon. Gentleman said that somewhere in an article I had advocated a...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1184 (Link to this contribution) I believe that the hon. Gentleman doth protest too much.
Owen Smith | 534 c1183 (Link to this contribution) In a moment. I could have responded to the hon. Gentleman's curious remarks about some mysterious a...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1165-6 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for what was again a thoughtful comment. It is recognised that there is a...
Robin Walker | 534 c1166 (Link to this contribution) As an English Member, and a member of the Welsh Affairs Select Committee, I recognise that problem. ...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1166 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend; that issue is being brought into sharp focus by the health service cuts...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1167 (Link to this contribution) Indeed; we should not be surprised by any of the actions taken by the Labour Administration.
Guto Bebb | 534 c1166 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. In those circumstances, it is crucial to recognise that there is an issue that needs to be a...
Mark Williams | 534 c1166 (Link to this contribution) One subject that has been mentioned in the debate is the legislative competence orders, which many o...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1166-7 (Link to this contribution) It could be argued that the legislative competence order procedures and the Government of Wales Act ...
Alun Cairns | 534 c1167 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend also recall that those changes to the electoral system were introduced against t...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1167 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman should be aware that the system was changed specifically as a result of pressure ...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 534 c1168 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that point?
Guto Bebb | 534 c1168 (Link to this contribution) I am slightly surprised by that intervention, because I thought it was self-explanatory. The sooner ...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1168 (Link to this contribution) Let me reassure my hon. Friend that the bilateral discussions on the Holtham floor are already takin...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1168 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Secretary of State, and I am delighted to hear that those discussions have already start...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1169-71 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. For clarity, let me say that I am previously on rec...
Hywel Williams | 534 c1171 (Link to this contribution) I am slightly disappointed that the hon. Gentleman and other Members seem to think of such cross-bor...
Hywel Williams | 534 c1171 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Do you agree that when a Member mentions another Member, it ...
Speaker | 534 c1172 (Link to this contribution) That is not a point of order, as the hon. Gentleman knows, but it is a customary courtesy in this Ho...
Owen Smith | 534 c1172 (Link to this contribution) This is not a point of order, but just a request for clarification. Is there a reason why the hon. G...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1172 (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting clarification, which is contradicted somewhat by an article by one of the Pla...
Wayne David | 534 c1172 (Link to this contribution) In case the hon. Gentleman is thinking of joining the Labour party, may I just tell him that it is f...
Guto Bebb | 534 c1172 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman was not in the Tea Room when I was there. I hope that he accepts my apology. On ...
Owen Smith | 534 c1185 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, and thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Today's debate and the Silk commission are extremely impo...
Speaker | 534 c1185 (Link to this contribution) Order. We are having a debate on devolution in Wales, so I am not quite sure whether a future debate...
Owen Smith | 534 c1186 (Link to this contribution) I wholly dispute that. Devolution in 1997 was born of need and demand in Wales. It had been developi...
Alun Cairns | 534 c1186 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is being extremely generous. If demand was so...
Owen Smith | 534 c1185-6 (Link to this contribution) No, it has not been done, as the hon. Lady says. It is very good to see her today—I am very pleased ...
Alun Cairns | 534 c1186 (Link to this contribution) Speaking as a Conservative Member, I do not accept that point. In my mind, the purpose of the Silk c...
Owen Smith | 534 c1185 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State shakes her head, but that was the conclusion drawn by a commission led by the...
Owen Smith | 534 c1188 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The Welsh Assembly has understood that in order to stimulate our...
Nick Smith | 534 c1188 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my hon. Friend on his support for subsidiarity and decisions being made at the right ...
Owen Smith | 534 c1188 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way; I am going to finish in a moment. We need a stimulus, which is why the five-po...
Owen Smith | 534 c1186-8 (Link to this contribution) Several Government Members have talked about what, to put it bluntly, is ancient history now and poi...
Jonathan Edwards | 534 c1189 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Lady recognise that London gets a higher percentage of public expenditure per head tha...
Speaker | 534 c1188 (Link to this contribution) Order. There are three speakers to go, and we have 25 minutes left for them. If they can divide that...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 534 c1188-9 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) for his kind words in welcoming me to the debate...
Owen Smith | 534 c1189 (Link to this contribution) On a point of fact, the distribution to Wales is not based on need—that is why we have long argued f...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 534 c1189 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate what the hon. Gentleman is saying. I do not believe that we should have a needs-based f...
David Jones | 534 c1201 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has already indicated the levels of fiscal accountabilit...
Nia Griffith | 534 c1199-200 (Link to this contribution) No, I think that I have made my point. Opposition Members felt that they would have had more chance ...
David Jones | 534 c1200-1 (Link to this contribution) This has been an important debate and, as it turns out, one that is particularly well timed because ...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 534 c1201 (Link to this contribution) I am trying to get my head around the idea of the level of financial devolution that will give accou...
Jonathan Evans | 534 c1198 (Link to this contribution) The Labour party has been using those figures quite heavily today, and it has based them on the Holt...
Nia Griffith | 534 c1198-9 (Link to this contribution) Those figures were recently provided by the House of Commons Library, on 2 November, and I am sure t...
Cheryl Gillan | 534 c1199 (Link to this contribution) I should like to inform the hon. Lady and the House that the terms of reference were agreed with the...
Nia Griffith | 534 c1199 (Link to this contribution) The irony being that today we have discussed the importance of Parliament; many Government Members h...
David Jones | 534 c1201-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall not, as I have very little time left. I am sure my hon. Friend understands. Fiscal devoluti...
Subjects
Accountability Devolution Cross border cooperation Public consultation National Assembly for Wales Public expenditure Wales Taxation Commission on Devolution in Wales
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk